Manual transmission Fan Club and BS thread (All Generations Welcome)

I don't think a manual transmission option is feasible with the Toyota Hybrid System. It essentially replaces the entire transmission with 2 electric motors and 1 gas engine powering different sections of a single planetary gear set. 1 element of the planetary gear set is connected to the gasoline engine, 1 element to the final drive and the smaller electric motor/generator (called MG2), and the final element is connected to the larger motor/generator (MG1). In this way it can function electrically as a constant variable transmission for the engine. The main catches of this design is a fairly low maximum speed without running the gas engine, as power is supplied only by MG2, as the coasting MG1 rpm rapidly rises as the vehicle gains speed. If you have driven a Prius you can see this behavior as the motor sits around 1800 rpm at nearly any steady speed when it is being used. If you smash the throttle the motor rpm jumps up to around 4200 rpm and stays at a fixed engine speed as the vehicle gains speed. Above about 40mph it will always run the gas engine (and from about 3mph if you floor it at launch). It takes a few drives to get used to this behavior, especially for someone like me who only owns manual transmission vehicles.

 

Totally. Fingers crossed.

 

The 4th Gen Tacoma uses a system that is different from which you describe. The electric motor is mounted just like the Tundra, sitting in between the gas engine and transmission. Toyota tends to do this with the HD platform vehicles, which started around 2014 in the USA w/ the Hino 195H. Anyway, it could run a manual trans, but again, the torque limit of the RC series manual transmission is only 310 ft/lbs, at least in Toyota’s eyes.

Tundra…

 

thats how the Prius hybrid system works. thats not how the tundra and tacoma hybrid system works.

on the tacoma and tundra, the electric motor sits inline between the engine and transmission.

it could basically be exactly the same with a manual transmission as the automatic. I think the tricky part is you would have a clutch that you dont have computer control over and would you put the electric motor before or after the clutch? im guessing there is pros and cons to both and the ecu programming gets pretty complex to make it feel right and not burn up the clutch.

 

The sensors from the IMt system will allow it. The clutch master cylinder has a sensor along the length that allows the ECU know exactly where everything is concerning the clutch. 3 = magnets, 5 sensor yoke, 2 is the clutch stroke sensor.

 

Oh yeah. I forgot about iMT, that would do it. I haven’t gone down that rabbit hole yet to see how it all works.

 

Adjusting the free play on that system is going to require a visit w/ TIS. A rabbit hole for sure.

 

Since they have switched to the Honda hybrid system I suspect they will kiss the larger fuel economy gains goodby. The original Honda Insight secret was a super aerodynamics, low weight all aluminum construction, and an anemic gas engine. The problem is that gasoline engines are quite inefficient in most of their operating range. With the THS Toyota picked a peak part throttle torque point to maximize gas efficiency and them peak horsepower to give it some pep when you put your foot in it. As annoying to drive as CVT systems are you cannot really do that without them. They also uncoupled all the accessories from the engine -- even the water pump on the later versions (no fan belt).

I don't want an inline hybrid that cannot even be an EV without turning the gas engine. I don't need all the normal car parts that can break and all the hybrid parts that can break too. On top of that WA punishes hybrids at registration time! I'll take slightly lower fuel economy in a normal drivetrain, or fully electric without any of the gas parts, thank you very much.

 

I agree - We are past the hybrid chapter in the auto story... Hybrids had their time, but no longer makes sense to carry TWO different (bit now combined?) drivetrains. The goal is towards simplicity - FEWER moving parts.

I bet that if Toyota had not stubbornly stuck to Hybrids and tried to distract itself with Hydrogen, by now Toyota would now have a full EV Taco - and Tundra.

I'll wait patiently for a competitively prices FULL EV 4x4...

 

For my year, 2007 - the 5 speed manual transmission was rated as obtaining slightly better fuel economy that the 4 speed automatic for the 2.7L that year. V6 trucks though, show better economy with the 5 speed automatic than the 6 speed manual. With manual transmission vehicles I've owned, I typically exceed the EPA fuel economy ratings.

 

This is not at all. How Toyota Tundra, Tacoma Sequoia and the upcoming 4Runner work whatsoever. They have real transmissions in them, not the two stage planetary/ CVT mix transmission that the Prius and Corollas use. Which by the way, is damn near indestructible.

You just keep missing the mark here bud. Not trying to be that guy but you're wrong. This is nothing like the Honda insight or any of Honda's past hybrid attempt. In fact, if you want to talk about efficiency, the hybrid accords always got better mileage than the inside. Part of it had to do with more power in the system meaning it had to work less hard to move. The insight was a neat car but unfortunately it was following on the heels of the Prius and never did quite level up or match. As far as the Honda hybrid system, their early hybrids, the electric motors acted more like a boost to the gas system as opposed to an alternative EV drive line. This is not how Toyota's work at all.

As far as complaining about a hybrid that can't have EV mode, I can see you haven't been in a Toyota hybrid since at least 2014. EV mode is a simple press of a button and if you have enough charge, the system will allow you to drive in EV mode. Whether you're in a Sequoia or a RAV4 or Prius.

You're off the mark by several hundred miles here. Toyota will not go full EV. They've stated as such and they're going to stick to it. The resources just aren't available and they know that. They've secured what they need to to continue doing operations as they see fit. Their hybrid production is getting more and more efficient using less and less heavy metals every year. As far as simplicity goes, Toyota's hybrid systems use very few moving parts and have less wear and tear on even the ice components as compared to their fully ice counterparts. The hybrid is the way to go in the future, as it gives the best of both worlds while also using minimal amount of extraneous resources.

Toyota hasn't used a 5-speed automatic and over a decade.

 

Referring to the year I have, 2007. I've always been a generation or two behind with vehicles I've owned. I feel confident owning a 16 year old Toyota.

 

Roger that. Frankly, that's where Toyota confidence comes from is the fact that their used cars last for about a century or two

 

I mean it seems like they're exploring it and hit a wall with development based on the timing of this patent being filed.

https://www.motortrend.com/news/toyota-ev-manual-transmission-sports-car-patent/

 

Hit a wall? There's no evidence of that.

 

The timing is interesting especially since the 4th has probably been in the works since around the 3rd gen start.

 

...Hmmm, would rather drive an automatic than a fake manual...

 

Right but the patent is only filed a year and a half ago and with the 4th gen having been a development for longer... But there's no reason to think just because they didn't implement a certain technology doesn't mean it's not going to happen

 

I agree I think they tried to get it to work and are still working on it (fingers crossed) and it will be part of the midcycle refresh for a manual with the hybrid.