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Motive Power Brake Bleeder

Discussion in '1st Gen. Tacomas (1995-2004)' started by goldentaco03, Sep 12, 2020.

  1. Sep 12, 2020 at 3:31 PM
    #1
    goldentaco03

    goldentaco03 [OP] Well-Known Member

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    So I've been bleeding brakes using the one-man Gatorade bottle and tube method for as long as I've been working on cars (honestly not long, only about 5-6 years). To be honest it's a pain in the ass every time, even though its a good way to bleed brakes by yourself. I had done brakes on my moms car, brothers car, and my truck all in a one month span and after that I wanted to find an easier way to bleed/flush brakes.

    I had heard people mention the Mity Vac on TW before so I did a little research on it and came up with mixed reviews, although, it is nice to have a hand-held vacuum pump like that for diagnostics. Then I stumbled upon the Motive Power bleeder on Amazon. It bleeds/flushes the brakes using positive pressure instead of negative pressure. Plus you don't have to mess around with a hand held pump at each wheel. Anyways, they sell a bunch of different adapters for all makes and models of cars. Since Tacoma's and almost all Toyota's have a press fit master cylinder cap there are no special adapters for them like other makes. Toyota's use the universal adapter which is universal and can be used on any brake fluid reservoir it'll fit over. They have a whole chart and write-up on their website that tells you what adapters to use for each make/model.

    Adapter Selection: https://www.motiveproducts.com/pages/application-guide
    Adapter: https://www.motiveproducts.com/coll...ic-adapters-adapters-classic-marine-universal

    In terms of how to use it it's really easy. The adapter has a chain and two hooks that attach to the cap and fit over the reservoir. Just make sure when you are putting it on the chain isn't wrapped around any brake lines or wires then tighten down the wingnuts by hand. It is recommended to syringe out the reservoir and refill with clean fluid before bleeding, I personally didn't do this because my brake fluid was only a month old and I just wanted to test this bleeder.
    IMG_8428.jpg
    The convex part of this rubber gasket faces inside the reservoir and the flush part sits on the cap. Pretty straightforward. Once the adapter is secured to the reservoir pump up the power bleeder to 15-20 PSI (make sure there's no fluid in the tank). Then let it sit for a minute or so and check to see if the pressure dropped at all. I found that I had to tighten the wingnuts a good bit more than I expected. It's okay if it drops a couple PSI over a couple minutes, a little air leaks out of some of the fittings.
    IMG_8429.jpg
    I also put PTFE tape on this fitting per the directions that came with it. Once you have it pressurized and there's no leaking then go ahead and fill the tank up with as much brake fluid as you plan to use.

    Once you're ready to bleed throw on some glasses just in case there's a leak and fluid sprays out, then pump up the tank to about 10 PSI (I’ve seen a couple different pressures recommended but I agree with @paetersen 15 is a little high for the reservoir aim for below that). Now for the easy part. Go around to each corner and crack the bleeder, put a hose on it, and wait for the bubbles to stop and the fluid to flow clear. Obviously follow the normal bleed order: Pass-R, Driver-R, Pass-F, Driver-F (do the LSPV first if you want to).

    It's as simple as that. Just sit and wait for it to do the work. I had to pump the tank a bit between each wheel because it is going to lose a little pressure as the fluid level in the tank drops and the fittings leak a bit. My brakes were as solid as they've been in a long time, and I was surprised that I still saw a few bubbles come out of some of the lines even though I hadn't done any brake work recently. Cleaning directions are in the box, I used simple green and a bit of water to clean it, make sure it dries out well after cleaning.

    Link to the whole kit on Amazon: https://www.amazon.com/Motive-Products-101-System-Bleeder/dp/B00CJ5DWKO/ref=sr_1_11?crid=XMXLOEDPIU36&dchild=1&keywords=motive+power+bleeder&qid=1599948187&sprefix=motive+%2Caps%2C151&sr=8-11

    Link to how to videos on Motive's website: https://www.motiveproducts.com/pages/instructional-videos

    Let me know if you guys have any questions about it, I thought it was a pretty cool tool, and not too expensive either.
     
    Last edited: Sep 12, 2020
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  2. Sep 12, 2020 at 5:17 PM
    #2
    paetersen

    paetersen Well-Known Member

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    dial your pressure back to 6-10 psi MAX or Bad Things will eventually happen. No automotive brake fluid reservior is designed to withstand pressure. Think pressurized homemade bomb filled with brake fluid.
     
    goldentaco03 [OP] likes this.
  3. Sep 12, 2020 at 5:24 PM
    #3
    goldentaco03

    goldentaco03 [OP] Well-Known Member

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    Believe 10 is what I read and used from TTORA, I’ll see if I can find my source. Can’t remember though it’s been a few weeks. I agree anything at 15 or over is definitely pushing it
     
  4. Sep 12, 2020 at 5:29 PM
    #4
    goldentaco03

    goldentaco03 [OP] Well-Known Member

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    Found it, they said 15, I pumped mine to just under 15 and after one wheel it’d be down at 10 and I’d repeat. I think 15 for the quick leak down test is okay, do you agree? Thanks for the input, I’ll edit the OP
     
  5. Sep 12, 2020 at 5:36 PM
    #5
    paetersen

    paetersen Well-Known Member

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    my source is 25 years of using this system and watching lesser experienced techs have some Very Bad Days. And fixing Other People's Mistakes.

    plastic gets brittle as it ages...
     
  6. Sep 12, 2020 at 5:42 PM
    #6
    paetersen

    paetersen Well-Known Member

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    It's a good system. IMO a much better system than the awful 'vacuum' bleed systems. Don't be suprised if occasionally you'll have to 'finish up' with a good old 2 person brake pedal bleed. But for flushing systems, for moving volume of fluid, it's fantastic and a real time saver.
     
    Last edited: Sep 13, 2020
    Dalandser and goldentaco03 [OP] like this.
  7. Sep 12, 2020 at 5:44 PM
    #7
    goldentaco03

    goldentaco03 [OP] Well-Known Member

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    Agree 100% my windshield washer fluid reservoir probably can’t even hold 3PSI right now.

    Im curious though, are these pressures for bleeding brakes specified my the car manufacturer or does the tool manufacturer specify it? I understand that snap on.. etc... have similar systems and I’d assume they have a spec for this, maybe broken down by make/model. I’ve scoured google and haven’t found anything other than the link i sent and some reviews on Amazon of people saying what pressure they used.
     
  8. Sep 12, 2020 at 5:45 PM
    #8
    goldentaco03

    goldentaco03 [OP] Well-Known Member

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    Do you have advice for bleeding the ABS (w/o expensive OBD tool) should it somehow get air in it? Or if you just wanna flush the old fluid out of it?
     
  9. Sep 12, 2020 at 5:51 PM
    #9
    paetersen

    paetersen Well-Known Member

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    Usually the only problem with ABS is with the older ones that had the 'bomb'- a diaphragm pressure regulator filled with brake fluid attached to the valve body on some older bosch systems. the modern valve bodies don't have huge reserviors with fluid in it and most are fine being bled out in the unactivated state, IE key off bleeding. Occasionally, like on some domestic cars, you would turn the key on, fill the reservior, hit the brakes and crack a line- the ABS pump will activate and crap fluid out of the open line.

    I beleive (and professionally speaking Toyotas are not my strong point- European mechanic) that the tacoma ABS valve body bleeds just fine without the scan tool activation.
     
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  10. Sep 12, 2020 at 6:05 PM
    #10
    goldentaco03

    goldentaco03 [OP] Well-Known Member

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    Huh interesting, I wonder if there’s any Toyota /Japanese mechanics on here that could explain how the Toyota system works because, again, I’ve read many different opinions on this. I might go do a little research cause now I’m curious.

    Does Timmy the toolman have a video on brake bleeding, maybe he talks about ABS?
     
  11. Sep 12, 2020 at 10:22 PM
    #11
    jbrandt

    jbrandt Made you look

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    I just used mine for the first time today. I just installed Deaver J59's and while I was there did a new extended rear brake line, and new braided font lines as well.

    Easiest bleed I've ever done.

    I have ABS on my 2004. I didn't have any problems. If you're just replacing the fluid, just do your normal bleed routine along with the BPV.

    I hear a lot of people say you should start with the wheel farthest from the master cylinder (i.e. rear passenger), however, if you want to talk about the fluid that travels the farthest, that'd be the driver rear for a truck with ABS, because master cylinder goes to the ABS unit on the passenger side, then goes to all the wheels.

    I still did it the "normal" way (passenger rear 1st) and had no problems. I was getting a ton of air bubbles from the rear passenger brake, but I'm pretty sure that was from sucking air in thru the bleed screw threads. I still have a few adjustments to do (adjusting the height of the BPV after my lift) so I might end up re-doing the rear brakes, and put some teflon tape on the bleed screw threads just to be sure.

    The really nice thing about the Motive system is that it's really hard to suck air into the master cylinder.
     
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  12. Sep 13, 2020 at 8:40 AM
    #12
    goldentaco03

    goldentaco03 [OP] Well-Known Member

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    Oh yeah I totally forgot to mention that it keeps the reservoir filled up. No more crawling out from under the truck to top it off.

    To build off the discussion on ABS from before, I think you and @paetersen are correct. Did a little research and from what I can tell most ABS systems (I don’t wanna say all Toyota’s cause I couldn’t find much about them specifically) are just a valve body with an inlet and return to the master and then outlet lines to each wheel. Inside the module is a pump and an array of solenoids. From what I understand these solenoids are normally open so when the ABS isn’t engaged fluid flows freely through the valve body. When the ABS kicks in the ECU tells certain valves to open/close to direct fluid away from the wheels that are locked up. The ABS pump gives the fluid a little extra boost per se to recover some of the lost pressure from all the valve switching. The only place I could see air getting trapped would be in the vanes of the pump, but I couldn’t find much on how these pumps are made and operate so I’m not sure if it’s possible at all or if the amount of air trapped would be significant.

    Sources: I found a few YouTube videos on ABS module disassembly and ABS system explanations. The following article was also helpful in explaining all the components: https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.sinspeed.co.uk/blog/what-is-an-abs-pump-how-does-it-work/amp/
     
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  13. Sep 13, 2020 at 11:35 AM
    #13
    paetersen

    paetersen Well-Known Member

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    Just some thoughts to add with a using a pressure system: I never put fluid in the actual motive bottle, just top up the reservior and use the bottle as an air cylinder. I also keep a few sacks of dessicant in the motive bleeder bottle- when you pressurize air it creates moisture. I am very picky about things like that and came up with this way of using the system to keep introduction of moisture at the lowest levels possible.
     
  14. Sep 13, 2020 at 12:48 PM
    #14
    b_r_o

    b_r_o Turks and Cake

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    But then you have to keep taking the adapter cap off the reservior to fill it :notsure:
     
  15. Sep 13, 2020 at 2:41 PM
    #15
    goldentaco03

    goldentaco03 [OP] Well-Known Member

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    Yeah I guess he’s saying because the moisture that forms when you compress air. Which he’s absolutely correct, I just wonder how much H2O is forming at 10 PSI. I’m a mechanical engineer so I should be able to figure this out, I think the biggest factor is the humidity of your ambient air.

    Also humor me here, if you’re not putting any fluid in the tank but still pressurizing it isn’t that moisture still being exposed to the master cylinder reservoir? Or are you saying the desiccant takes care of that?
     
  16. Sep 13, 2020 at 3:04 PM
    #16
    b_r_o

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    I think concern about excess moisture from compressing the air is a little overblown

    Ive got a 64oz pressure bleeder at work, every brake flush gets 32 oz or more flushed through it, haven't seen any signs of excessive moisture damage yet. Repeatedly taking the adapter off to fill the reservior would be silly and time consuming. Those universal caps dont fit great anyways, if its on there snug im not messing with it until the flush is done

    The moisture absorption happens over time. The brake fluid isn't going to soak up a ton in just the 10-15 minutes that it takes to do a flush.
     
  17. Sep 13, 2020 at 3:42 PM
    #17
    goldentaco03

    goldentaco03 [OP] Well-Known Member

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    So I did the calculations to see just how much moisture would condense.

    First I'll define the ambient conditions and the conditions inside the tank. I'll list assumptions as I go through the calculations:
    State 1 (ambient intake air) --- T = 20 degC or 74 degF --- P = 0 PSIG --- RH = 100%
    State 2 (compressed air inside tank) --- T = 20 degC or 74 degF --- P = 10 PSIG --- RH = 100%

    I assumed relative humidity to be 100% just to show a worst case scenario. Next is to find the maximum water content of air at each of these states. There's all sorts of tables and charts available online for this. Engineering Toolbox was the first one that popped up and that website is usually my go to. https://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/water-content-compressed-air-d_1275.html

    So max_h2o_state1 = 0.00112 lb/ft^3
    and.. max_h2o_state2 = 0.0008568 lb/ft^3 (had to do a bit of linear interpolation for that one)

    Since no air dryer is present and we are assuming 100% RH we can conclude that the difference between those two maximum water contents is the amount of water that condenses. Now also keep in mind that this is going to condense in minuscule droplets on the surfaces inside the tank it's just going to mix into the brake fluid right away. I believe the tank is 1 gallon so we are going to go with that.

    So... condensed_h2o = 0.0002614 lb/ft^3 => 3.5*10^-5 lb/gal => 0.0033 tsp per gallon.

    So there you have it, in theory 3 thousandths of a teaspoon of water will form during the compression process. I'd say that's about equivalent to a bead of sweat or smaller. If anyone knows the brake fluid capacity of our systems off hand then we can see what kind of percentage it would be and what affect this moisture would have on the brake fluid.
     
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  18. Sep 13, 2020 at 3:59 PM
    #18
    goldentaco03

    goldentaco03 [OP] Well-Known Member

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    All that being said, I think the bigger concern is getting the entire system dried out well after cleaning it, especially if you use some sort of water based cleaner. I like the idea of keeping dessicants in it when you’re not using it. Looking at mine right now I can see a little bit of some sort of liquid on the hose.
     
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  19. Sep 13, 2020 at 4:08 PM
    #19
    paetersen

    paetersen Well-Known Member

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    The time wasted in cleaning and prepping the container and hoses is the biggest reason I don't bother putting fluid in the pressure bleeder. So I leave it dry, and throw some dessicant in the bottom. One problem solved, another possible problem nipped in the bud.
     
  20. Sep 13, 2020 at 9:18 PM
    #20
    jbrandt

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    No you don't. You fill the pressure bottle, and it squirts the fluid into the reservoir on the master cylinder.
     

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