Need Advice - New Truck Was Painted Prior to Sale

No worries Masada & thanks for your post. When I started this thread I wasn't necessarily looking for everyone to agree with me and I feel better about the whole thing (although thats the way it turned out). If you've got a contrasting opinion it is just as helpful to me as someone telling me that its effed up and I should chase Toyota for it. I'm want to know how everyone else thinks because that will help me figure out what Toyota's response might be.

I also took pictures today. There has been light rain all night here in VA. I've got the wet headliner again. I also removed both rear fold-up seats, the plastic storage tray, and the access covers for the child seat anchors. All areas look like they have been exposed to water. There is some rust, staining on the fabric, and deposits from dried water. I'll post later after I take a few more pics. I was working on removing the subwoofer when it started to rain harder so I stopped.

I think my approach will be to contact Koons Tysons in writing and ask for a written response of the vehicle's history and details on the repair. Everything from that dealer up to now has been verbal. The only written evidence that the truck has been repainted is the evaluation on the service report from Ourisman Fairfax. After I get the written response from Koons I'll modify and send the previously posted letter to Toyota with pictures attached.

 

Tell them to put their explaination in writing

remind them the it was not disclosed to you at time of purchase

also in some states there is a time frame that affords consumers rights that might protect you -- in that you can return/exchange the vehicle. Remind the selling dealer that ignorance to the condition of the vehicle is not an excuse and that it is their problem to take it up with the other dealer.

Again -- anything they tell you they need to provide to you in writing and that if they don't you will assume that they are not diclosing the real condition of the vehicle that puts them in a catch 22

 

The truck is at the dealer right now. I did send the letter requesting that they take care of the leak immediately to avoid 'additional water related damage'. The customer service manager for the dealership and the service dept both worked with me. They said they would reseal the area around the third brake light and window. If they could not get the leak to stop they said they would replace the entire rear window assembly and trim. Both of them met me when I brought the truck into the dealership and said that they would take care of everything and pursue reimbursement from the dealer that transferred the vehicle to them. I wa relieved to hear that they would be doing the legwork on that part and I wouldn't have to chase down the original dealer myself or through Toyota.

In my letter I requested a response in writing regarding the vehicle's repair history and damage amount. The CS manager for the dealership said that she would have no problem responding in writing but wanted to let me know what details she had for right now. She said that the repair bill was around $1200 and the dealership was willing to cut a check for the repair amount. Condidering that the difference in KBB trade-in value of this truck in Excellent vs. Good condition is about that much, I think its fair.

If they can get the leak fixed and assess and fix any water-damage to the truck I think that its a fair deal and I would be happy with this. I'm sure I will have to sign some sort of agreement that I would consider the issue closed. Do you all think this is fair? Anything I should watch out for?

Right now I feel good about the dealer's response and they way they're handling this problem.

 

Ok guys...I'm at the point where I have the option to close this issue with the dealer for good. My problem is that I still have reservations. I've obtained a copy of the service report that details the repairs to the roof;

The original dealer was Allen Toyota in Gulfport MS.
The truck was damaged during Hurricane Gustav, which made landfall on 9/1/08
The date of repair was 11/14/08
These were replaced; windshield moulding, roof panel, 2 interior coat hooks, and 2 visor holders.

Total for parts was $500.93. Total for labor is $762.60.

Koons will cut a check to me for the repair amount of $1263.53 after I sign a hold harmless agreement that states that the payment will close this issue.

I have reservations because I've done a pretty thorough look around the truck for flood damage but I can't come to a definite conclusion on if the cab was flooded with water.

The metal seatframe is definitely rusted, but nothing else around it is rusted or looks like its been exposed to water.

I removed the plastic panels on the doorsill and there are small metal shavings under there that are rusting but nothing else is rusted. I've been finding these metal shavings under the carpets and panels. There was some of it on the headliner when I bought the truck. I'm thinking these could be from the roof repairs?

I don't know;
-If there were other repairs made that have not been disclosed to me
-If the cab was flooded. Its apparent to me that the interior at least got some water in it but I can't say it wasn't flooded.
-If the carpet was replaced.

What do you all think? Should I accept the payment from the selling dealer? What can I do at this point to get more information?

 

Go for the payment. That is a good lump of money. You have gone through the vehicle with a fine-toothed comb. Surface rust is easily taken care of. If the carpet had been soaked, you would smell it by now.

Take the money.

 

I worked at a dealership for awhile...and unfortunatly like any other business inventory gets damaged...However some people are not botehr by repairs others are...You said new windshield...so it could have leaked and the interior got wet...IF it bothers you than, that is fine this is what i would do...

THIS IS WHAT YOU SHOULD DO...
1. You could except payment for the "known" damage and hope there are no underlying problems down the road...

or (this is what i would do)

2. I would ask for a comperable vehicle...Basicaly tell them you are not comfortable driving this one not really knowing what happened or what was repair (i.e. flood, electrical etc) and I would say keep your money and sell me a different car...

The dealer shold have no problem selliing you another car...basically they can give you "trade-in" for what you paid and sell you another vehicle...I would definitley hope they would treat you right and give you invoice priceing+current incentives etc...

All-in-all i wouldnt drive a Hurricane truck...You never know what might have been replaced...The original dealer could have robbed parts out of a truck that was completely totalled in the storm to fix yours with minor damage...Electric could has corosion inside all insulation, you never know what could spring up down the road...and a little wear and tear...and before you know it you have owned the truck for 5 years, no warentee, the dealer wont help you out then and a shit ton of problems...

 

Warren, Sporty, thanks for your replies!

When I bought the truck I was offered an extended warranty. Do you think I could negotiate that extended warranty in addition to the payment? Would this be a sensible alternative to swapping vehicles?

 

Seems to me the selling dealer/Toyota is a little too eager to make this go away. Seems to me they are all too eager to cover thier own a$$ by requiring a hold harmless signature. Never heard of a dealer willing to give money back.

SManZ, I would wonder... it looks by those dates that the truck sat for 75 days before a repair was made. Was it sitting outside or did it get covered after the storm? You have every right to be concerned and aprehensive about the deal the dealer is offering.

I think if it were mine I would seek the opinion of an independent body shop to help you determine if there has been water damage/flooding. Then make a decision based on that report. I've had great experiences with the shop out near the intersection of Willard and Stonecroft, and also with the Caddy/Hummer dealer on Rt 50.

Best of luck and please keep us posted.

 

So do I.

First - the cost of the repairs has no relationship to the lessened value of the truck. They're using that number to try to buy you off cheap.

The agreement means that if you have trouble down the road, you have signed away any rights to ask them to fix or compensate.

If there is any hidden damage, it is yours to fix.

Standards of rustproofing in repairs are not the same as at the factory. The guy in the body shop is concerned with how the vehicle looks when you pick it up. He is not paid to make sure it will still look good 5 years down the road. That may be when parts start rusting off. Had that happen to a car I had repaired.

I would not touch this deal with your ten foot pole. I particularly do not like the agreement they want you to sign.

Edit: If you already own the truck and they did not disclose this damage when you bought it, here's what I would do.

• Run a Carfax on it. See if the damage shows up.
• Talk to your insurance company and see what they think about the damage vs. insurability. I know they will not provide collision on a vehicle with a salvage title, for example.
• Try to get some estimate of the value of the vehicle vs. one that has not been damaged. That could be as high as $5K
• Do not sign any agreement w/out discussing this with an attorney.
• Consider contacting whatever agency deals with consumer fraud because selling this to you w/out prior disclosure probably constitutes fraud.

Personally, I would see if I could use the fraud issue to back out of the deal (with full return of purchase price) and start the process again with another dealer

I'm really sorry to hear that your purchase has gone bad. Buying a vehicle is one of the biggest expenses you can undertake and it should be a pleasant - even exciting - experience. I'm 56 and have bought over ten cars in my lifetime and buying or '06 Taco a little over a month ago was still exciting.

 

Wow...interesting story. I'm sorry to hear about your predicament but it sounds like you have been rational and mature in your actions.

That is definitely scary knowing the truck was damaged in a hurricane. I don't advocate frivolous lawsuits but you have a case here. This should have been disclosed and CarFax should have known about it. The dealerships insurance probably paid for the repair damage...why was it now disclosed. Something just doesn't sound right.

I think I would demand MORE than what they are offering you. That is a fair discount if they disclosed it up front. If they said "here is a truck with some minor roof damage from a storm. Here is $1200 off and an additional $3000 off as our standard discount". And yes, $3000 off MSRP is the standard. I got $4000 off MSRP due to some crafty negotiations. If they disclosed it, $4200 off MSRP seems reasonable. Take it or leave it.

Unfortunately, they tried to hide the damage and that was WRONG. They forced you into this situation by misrepresenting their product. Make them pay for trying to pull it over on you. It sounds like your dealership is quick to make this "go away". Guess why? They should be assessed a "fine" or "penalty" - no different than breaking the law and trying to cover up the crime. The rest of us are sitting here wondering if our trucks ever had serious damage that was never reported.

At a minimum, I would ask for the $1200 check and that the extended warranty is thrown in free of charge (7yr/75,000). At a maximum, seek legal advice and go after the jugular.

 

So the truck was in a hurricane and for some reason it was shipped north to sell it 15 months after it was built??!! Sound to me that you were scammed. In Texas, they probably have to report the damage before they can sell it. Because of this, nobody would purchase it. So it sat on their lot until they decide to offload it at a huge loss (or their insurance company wrote it off). Your dealership purchased it knowing it was damaged and at a huge discount. Then they sell it to you without telling you about the damage and, even with the discount, they make a huge profit.

If you knew it was damaged you wouldn't have purchased it. Sounds like you've been scamed big time! This sounds very illegal to me. I'd talk to a lawyer. Try calling Texas vehicle registration and ask them about the state laws related to hurricane damage.

Also, I would take it to an independent mechanic and ask him (or her) if the car has suffered any water damage from a flood. You already mention that there is rust inside the cab. Whether or not that rust is from the leaking brake light or from a flood is hard to determine. However, you should lift the carpet, look under the brake pedal area, take a piece of the dash off and have a good look around.

Cheers.

 

Hmm, Koons is in VA, right? Funny, I just had a similar experience purchasing a car in VA about two weeks ago. In my case, the outcome was good (for me). Assuming the parameters are the same in your case, it could be good for you as well.

First, I assume we're dealing with a NEW vehicle here. I think there are some protections in place for pre-owned vehicles in this situation, but I think the dollar amount limits, time frames, etc. are different.

My story: I live in NC, but no one in my area had a particular year/model car I was looking for. I managed to locate one at a dealership in VA. The downside was that the salesman at that dealership told me that the car had been "backed into" in their lot at some point and had "minor damage" to the hood & grille areas. The car was in their shop, being repaired as "brand new", so I was told. They also said that since the repairs were all being done in-house, there would be no carfax record.

Long story short, I ended up at another VA dealer to buy what was described to me over the phone as a "killer deal". When I arrived, the car was not what I thought it was, which I chalked up to a mutual misunderstanding between what I asked them for & what the car was actually equipped with. Fair enough to say no harm/no foul on either of our parts.

The thing was that this dealer was offering me more for my car than the delaership with the "repaired" car was. The thing was that this dealer was offering me more for my car than the other dealership with the "repaired" car was This dealer had no other cars to my liking, though. The other dealer was also another couple of hours north of where this dealership is located. I told them about this car at the other dealer...they made some calls & said they could get it for me & we could do the deal here, today. I said I wanted the complete information on the "minor damage". While the car was en-route, they obtained some photos of the damage. Kind of hard to see the damage from these pics (the car is black), but I figured the dealer body shop would restore it to "like new" as promised, using all new parts.

I did all the deal paperwork (or what I thought was all the paperwork) while the car was en-route. In some respects, that was a mistake, but ultimately it saved me. The car arrived after the dealership had closed, most everyone had left by then. After it came off of the car carrier, the salesman did the delivery spiel and sent me on my way...he was looking to go home at that point, too.

During the three-hour or so drive home, I got thinking that I really didn't know WHAT had been done to repair the damage, so I came up with a plan.

The next morning, I took the car to carmax for a trade-in appraisal to see if they came up with anything. Well, it took the appraiser LESS THAN FIVE MINUTES before he came to see me and ask if I knew that this car had been painted? He showed me how he ran his fingers along the edge of the hood to detect the difference in smoothness between what had been repainted & what the factory paint feels like. He also showed me where the hood was pretty much lined up on the body, and how the bolts had never been turned on the hood. So apparently, rather than replace the hood, they just fixed it & repainted it in place!

So now my big concern was, if this guy could find this issue so quickly, and be so concerned about it, how was that going to affect my trade/resale value down the road? In this case, carmax, who typically low-balls their trades to begin with, hit it even harder because of the damage. My assumption was that the "minor damage" the original dealer talked about would be replaced with all new parts, not just repaired.

I did some quick research and found out that there is VA state code that covers this situation in regard to a new car purchase. As it turns out, if there is damage done to a new car in excess of 3% of it's MSRP before it is sold by a new car dealer, that damage and repair work done must be fully disclosed in writing to the buyer prior to the sale. Failure for a dealer to issue this disclosure in writing results in the buyer being able to totally unwind the deal within 30 days of the purchase.

Virginia Code § 46.2-1571, paragraph E, states:

E. If the manufacturer or distributor refuses or fails to authorize correction of such damage within ten days after receipt of notification, or if the dealer rejects the vehicle because damage exceeds the three percent rule, ownership of the new motor vehicle shall revert to the manufacturer or distributor, and the new motor vehicle dealer shall have no obligation, financial or otherwise, with respect to such motor vehicle. Should either the manufacturer, distributor, or the dealer elect to correct the damage or any other damage exceeding the three percent rule, full disclosure shall be made by the dealer in writing to the buyer and an acknowledgement by the buyer is required. If there is less than three percent damage, no disclosure is required, provided the damage has been corrected. Predelivery mechanical work shall not require a disclosure. Failure to disclose any corrected damage within the knowledge of the selling dealer to a new motor vehicle in excess of the three percent rule shall constitute grounds for revocation of the buyer order, provided that, within thirty days of purchase, the motor vehicle is returned to the dealer with an accompanying written notice of the grounds for revocation. In case of revocation pursuant to this section, the dealer shall accept the vehicle and refund any payments made to the dealer in connection with the transaction, less a reasonable allowance for the consumer's use of the vehicle as defined in � 59.1-207.11. Nothing in this section shall be construed to exempt from the provisions of this section damage to a new motor vehicle that occurs following delivery of the vehicle to the dealer.
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http://law.justia.com/virginia/codes/toc4602000/46.2-1571.html

I was never given a breakdown of the costs or what was actually done to to car until two or three days AFTER the sale via a fax. The work that was done to the car, as indicated on the repair order was closer to 5-6% of the MSRP. Needless to say, I immediately called my dealer about this. I think they already knew that they had forgotten this step when I spoke to the general manager, so when I quoted the VA state code to them, there was no argument about me being able to come back and unwind the deal. Luckily, they still had my trade on the lot, so a few days later I drove back to VA in their car, and drove home in my old car.

So if this is a new car, there was more than 3% of the MSRP of body work done before you bought it & never signed a disclosure, I think you're in good shape.

 

As a dealer if they can get out if it cheap they will (no harm in them trying,if your happy and they dont have to take it back it is a win,win) but by the sounds of things they are willing to help you out and take the hit for selling you a car in the condition...They were probably unaware of the situation and found a vehicle that matched what they were looking for and sawped for it not knowing the circumstances...

I would be basically wanting every penny i spent applied towards the trade in/ cost of the New Vehicle...Tell them there are too many underlying issues that could result from water damage in time...

They can basically get you a different vehicle trade your for what you paid and then apply all yoru warentees etc towards the new...No reason why they wouldnt do all this...Now depending on how long you own it for...and how many miles you put on it...They might want to take that into consideration for depreciation, but if you have only just bought it you will have 30 to 60 days to "trade for a different vehicle" not return it outright but to get something different...I know that is how my dealer woudl handel the situation..It is called "Good Business" and as much as we think they are all crooks,they need to Keep a good reputation...

The last thing they would want is to you to start spreading rumors about how they sold you a hurricane truck. I would imagine they come through on this and you get taken care of properly...

 

Here is a Flood Car Alert from the Texas Department of Insurance. It has some information that may help you determine if the car was flood damaged (which it appears to have been) and who to contact if you believe that you have fraudulently been sold a flood-damaged vehicle.

 

Thanks for all the suggestions. You all are right - the more I think about this the uneasier I get about signing that agreement.

atebit, this situation pretty much fits what I'm going through, except that I bought it 9/14/09 and I'm well past the 30-days. The other thing that complicates this is that I've already added a bunch of stuff to the truck. Most of it is reversible (Toytec lift, MBRP exhaust, stainless steel lines, Hawk pads, TRD FJ rims). The one thing that isn't undoable is I traded my standard hood for a sport package hood off an '07 and had it repainted. I've got about 3700mi on the truck now.

I agree that it would be better to get a new 2010, even though it would be a total bitch to take everything off my truck to get it back to stock and then put it on the new truck.

I'm leaning towards filing a consumer complaint through BBB and/or Fairfax County's consumer affairs department and letting them handle the back-and-forth between me and the dealer from here. I really don't have the time or desire to pursue this through a court process.

 

Does anyone have a Carfax unlimited account? I ran the VIN once prior to buying the truck and again just before I started this process with the dealer but it came back clean both times. I wonder if anything has been added since then.

 

If you tell the dealer your intentions i am sure they will take care of you ...thats the last thing they want.

 

There are some links that you can use to check the vehicle history in the article I posted.
Example:
https://www.nicb.org/theft_and_fraud_awareness/vincheck/vincheck

Don't sign anything man. The fact that they were so quick to offer you a small settlement indicates that they are nervous.

Take it to a mechanic. Flood damage can screw you over in the future if you end up with problems with the electronics.

 

aNY UPDATES ????????

 

SManz...I too have dealt with Ms. Latiolais(Customer Relations) at Koon's Tysons...she is in no way an advocate of the consumer...you can throw her line "that I bought the truck for $3K under MSRP so I had a significant discount to begin with" out of the window as it has no relevance to your current situation...I would encourage you to pursue obtaining an unblemished, factory new vehicle identical to one you have versus taking their deal and signing away any recourse you may have if another issue arises from the shoddy repair work done to the vehicle...it may be a pain and time consuming, but you paid for a factory new vehicle...