Oil POLL

I feel like a traitor. I was originally in the 10k camp but I wimped out and I'm now in the 5k-7k camp. I decided to lean towards the clean oil cheap insurance. Plus I've had both a service manager and a mechanic tell me even they question the 10k interval and don't follow it themselves on their personal vehicles.

And I feel even more of a traitor. I was die hard do it yourself oil change but the dealer only charged me $53 for the change. Might as well let them do it.....I don't need to save 15 bucks doing it myself.

 

My grandfather told me many years ago that "Oil is cheaper than engines."

 

@aero90 Go with what makes you happy. Some of us urge folks to make decisions based on evidence, but at the end of the day it's your truck and your wallet.

I've been in situations where it was cheaper to have the dealer do the change at lunchtime while I waited than to DIY. Got to read a book or whatever while they did the work, didn't waste another bunch of time taking the used oil somewhere to get rid of it.

@cliffyk indeed, but how do you draw the line between 3000, 5000, 7500, 10,000, or 15,000 mile OCIs? What is the line between often enough and too often? Why not 1500 or 1000 or 500 mile OCIs?

 

What is there to worry about , Toyota says 10K . None of the engines could have any shavings in them during break in to cause wear, . They are all perfect , just like the transmissions , all are perfect. That sarcastically said, it cannot hurt for 1 early oil change just in case .

 

Yeah and it's weird because as an engineer I know that 10k estimate is conservative and it can probably go at least a few thousand miles longer before seeing I'll effects.

 

Other than it's being a silly thing to do there is really no such thing as "too often"; service duty is as always the primary factor in selecting change intervals. Regarding change intervals let me state firmly and clearly I believe¹ that 10k miles is not often enough; regardless of what brand of miracle brew oil one might be paying too much for.

My wife and I have for 35 years regularly run our cars to 200k+, her '89 Celica GT holds the record at 419k when we traded it in on the 2003 Highlander she now drives. It has currently 205k miles and does not leak or burn a drop. I had an '85 Corolla, the last of the RWD models and the last new car I bought, that ran to 390k when traded in 1999 for a '94 Corolla wagon. In general I change dino juice each 2500 to 3000 miles, synthetic at 4000 to 4500.

The Highlander sees horrible "short trips mostly" service so I have run Valvoline's MaxLife 10W-30 dino juice in it, changed every 2500 miles, since it passed 90k miles. Again IMHO¹ as engines get old clean oil is more important that the slight advantages synthetic offers over a quality fossil based oil; and it costs less to change dino every 2500 miles.

My '98 SL500 (10W-30 synthetic²) gets changed every 7500 (MB says 10k to 12.5k), but it holds 8.5 quarts and has a massive cartridge filter.

I haven't yet changed the oil in the "new-to-me" '09 Taco (135k when I bought it, always dealer serviced), though with 2400 miles since the dealer changed it it is time for me to think about it--I am leaning toward using the Pennzoil 10W-30 syn at 3000 to 3500 miles.

As sort of an experiment my '06 Honda Silver Wing has been run on Walmart's SuperTech Full Synthetic 10W-30 for the last 6k miles, changed once 2k miles ago. This oil is produced by Citgo for Walmart and as they are required to meet SAE and API standards, and it is clearly marked as "meets or exceeds the latest North American new vehicle warranty requirements API SN, ILSAC GF-5..." there is no reason why it would be any better or worse than any other--here is the MSDS.

Here in Florida I pretty much use 10W-30 in everything, year-round. All this said, the proper way to select oil grades is to use that which provides the manufacturer's recommended oil pressure at whatever rpm they specify--this is how Ferrari, Maserati, etc, specify engine oils (beyond the owner's manual quickie specs). Toyota says oil pressure for the 4.0L should be 43 to 85 psi @ 3000 rpm. Were I getting down and dirty determining what grade oil to run over an engine's life this is what I would monitor³.

And that's all I have to say about that...

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¹ - I believe, as in it is my opinion. I (MSME MIT '71) care not to argue these points.

² - My "go to" synthetic is whatever brand name full synthetic Walmart has on sale at the time I need it.

³ - In doing this it is important to always use a filter that provides minimal, or the same, pressure drop as oil pressure taps are typically "after" the filter just prior to the engine's oil galleries. Running supercharged Miatas years ago I investigated this quite deeply and found that the pressure drop across different brands of filters varied from 6 to over 15 psi, with the Fram Tough Guard having the highest drop. Here are my dissections of Miata filters from 2002/2003.

The bare element "cartridge" filter as used on the 3rd gen 3.5L V6 would minimise this issue as changing the filter does not also change the flow characteristics of the filter housing. I would not be surprised to find this was part of Toyota's decision to move to a bare element filter. This is a good move considering the 0W-20 whale piss they now specify.

 

You just defined the threshold of "too often" while dismissing its existence.¹

Agree on point #1, as to point #2 "appeal to authority" is a logical fallacy; as an engineer you know that experimental evidence trumps hypothesis/opinion.²

Thus the urging by myself an others to obtain lab analysis to validate opinions as to the factory OCI in context of the individual's specific usage patterns.

Declaratory assessments that a given OCI is "not often enough," in absence of experimental evidence to support the assertion, carry no weight. That remains true regardless of the declarator's academic credentials.

As for arguing the point, there is nothing to argue. There are experimental lab results or there are not. I've not yet put enough mileage on my Tacoma to allow meaningful experimental data from a Blackstone analysis, so for now I can only urge others to do so themselves.

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Since we're going to toss out educational backgrounds....
1 - Georgia Tech, MBA
2 - College of Engineering, Cornell University

 

I had realised the conflict in my opening in proofing the posting, but left it anyway. There are not many that would have caught the illogic.

Years ago in a Western Civilization class the professor asked on a quiz "In your opinion what caused the Wars of the Roses?" I responded with something rather silly, don't really remember exactly what, and he marked it incorrect. I contested that mark as he had asked for my opinion, and while he could certainly disagree with my opinion or state that it was incorrect, he could not prove that it was not my opinion and was therefore not a "correct" response to his query.

In my of the previous post I was quite clear in qualifying my "declaration" as being my belief and opinion--it is that belief and opinion I care not to argue. It may indeed be partially or even completely incorrect, but remains nevertheless a valid statement of my reckoning as I know from many years of empirical reality that keeping engine oil clean works to extend the useful life of IC engines. This may be coincidental and of course there are certainly other more scientifically determined procedures and methodologies to achieve that goal, however at my stage in life I will let others experiment as they like with the longevity of their engines.

Thank you for your thoughtful analysis...

 

I have a '15 2TR-FE which 'requires' 0W-20 and 5k/6mo intervals.

My annual mileage approximates 5K, but this vehicle HAS to last me 15 years.

First service was at 2,500 miles and it will be 6mo intervals from now on, even on my dime when ToyotaCare is expired. The ToyotaCare+ is overpriced and no sale to me.

I've researched this a bit using BITOG (with a grain of salt, like a lot of the stuff here) and some other oil and filter websites. My conclusions are:

1. There is no valid reason to use anything but TGMO at the price Toyota sells it for. Other oils are 'almost' the same, but the viscosity index of TGMO is perfectly matched to my operating conditions with lots of cold starts at about +40F garage temperature. There is no better oil value than TGMO.

2. Oil analysis used to be called 'trend monitoring'. One data point is useless, and even a long series of them is useful only for those who wish to use very long OCIs and the cost of the lab work rather defeats the purpose of saving money on oil and filters. For a safety sensitive application, like aviation, fine. For a truck? Hardly. I'll change the oil and filter instead. It costs about $35.

3. I'll skip the Denso made Toyota filters. They filter poorly, but of course 'flow' well which is a moot point since all the oil output from the pump goes through the filter unless it's in bypass and that should never happen with 0W-20 and a filter that's not loaded to saturation. The Toyota branded filters with 'G1' or 'G2' in the part number have a Purolator date code on the can. Wonder who makes them. I'll use those at least until the warranty is up. The dealer puts a 'G2' on there now. And, yes the bypass valve is part of the filter.

4. Time kills oil. 'Synthetic' is largely a misnomer, most oils are made from petroleum. It's just hydrocarbon chains, and they all need additives to improve viscosity, retard oxidation and nitration, and to improve lubrication. The 'oil' never really wears out, it just gets full of stuff carried in suspension and loses it's ability to keep things clean and rust free as the additives degrade. 'Synthetic' isn't a word that means 'magic'.

My previous vehicle was a leased 2012 Chevrolet Equinox. I leased it to see if I could get along without a truck (I can't) and since I was working and driving more the economics sort of made sense at the time. Interesting story:

The Equinox had a oil life monitor. GM had just gone to dexos spec oil. The vehicle required dexos-1 oil. I was instructed to have the oil changed when the OLM reached 20%.

It did so at 8,000 miles. I went to the dealer, and the service guy said I should have been there long ago. WTF?

I got the recall notice a few days later. As it turns out, that engine was having lubrication related failures on the great new dexos crap. The dealer complied with the recall, and re-calibrated the OLM. Next time it showed an oil change due at about 3,500 miles. dexos-1 spec oil, the latest and greatest! Had I actually owned that vehicle, I would have been pissed off.

So, that's my story and what I do based on some personal research. I'm not telling anyone what to do.

Good luck, and let's hope Toyota doesn't have a big rethink on the 10K OCI like GM did.

 

All well stated!

 

All good info in your post, albeit the quoted portion is misleading.

Blackstone, in performing a used oil analysis, provides not only the analysis data for the oil sample provided, but also provides aggregate comparative data from their other analyses for your motor. They additionally provide a qualitative assessment of the oil sample in terms of its useful life and oil change interval.

It is that information, particularly, that I an others are referencing in the suggestion to get an analysis performed to validate an OCI.

All that said, time trumps miles. Whatever the mileage, change the oil at 12 months.

 

I changed my oil for the first time....I actually like the cartridge because you can see all the crap it filtered out. I wasn't expecting to see the amount of metal shavings though. I just can't imagine waiting to change the oil until 10,000 miles. I've been reading on the forum of people changing the oil at 500 or 1,000 miles for break in. Suffice it say I'm glad I didn't wait any longer. It will be interesting to see what the filter looks like at 10k mike oil change

 

i like the graphics you have on the lower portion of your truck looks sharp!

 

Remove the skid plate .....Drain the oil cap .... Unscrew the oil cap ..... remove used oil filter .... insert new oil filter .... reinstall oil cap with new filter inserted ..... (make sure the oil cap drain plug is reinstalled) ... reinstall skid plate .... Top off oil level.

 

Thanks!! They have them in different colors. $44 bucks free shipping.

 

You've done this? Seemed like the housing was low enough to risk a bit more oil drainage than just the housing, but I haven't gone and looked again since doing my first change.

All that said I've never felt any urge to change a filter without also changing the oil, so the question is rather moot IMHO. *shrug* Go with whatever works for your circumstance.