Payload while mudding?

Hi all, wondering if anyone can lend some experience to a question.

So, my 4x experience is limited to forest roads, but I'm heading out with a group to Black Rock in April. I'm planning to keep off the playa for 98% of the trip, aside from one trail connector, mostly riding the 'road' around the perimeter, but the way I hear and read it my main adversary is going to be soft dirt.

So here's my question: I've got big dreams of a DIY RTT as well as hauling my dirtbike to go play with while we're at camp, but am I helping or hurting myself with the extra payload? Did my CAD thing, the tent is coming in at around 250lbs, the bike another 210, so that's got me around 460 before things like food, water and fuel, looking like a full load.

Obviously we all have read to add weight to the rear for traction (though I've never felt a need to do that before, honestly), but I'm also reading that, logically, more weight means more sinking into the soft stuff. I'm hoping to find someone with some real-world comparative experience.

The truck, by the way, will be an 18 OR with wildpeaks on it.

Thanks so much!

 

And yeah, I know my tent is looking heavy, but it's a found-materials build. Plywood and steel. Strangely enough, Craigslist wasn't flush on 4'x8'x1" polyurethane slabs and aluminum angle

 

I haul more weight in armor than that.
You will want to looking into getting a heavy duty set of leaf springs but other than that you will be fine.

by the time I’m loading for a offroad/camping trip I’m somewhere in the range of 1,200 lbs of extra gear

 

I appreciate the response.

My loads are intermittent and my truck is my daily driver, so I usually swap in and out a pair of timbren SESs to protect my ride height when I’m loaded down (off-road timbren stops when the SES’s are off), that seem fair?

But like I said, I know I’ll be within payload, my big concern is whether I’ll be working against myself regarding making it across the mud. Am I making life easier or harder on myself with that rear-axle weight

 

Are you going to lay the bike on its side to fit it under your RTT, or is your RTT going to be ridiculously high? Or maybe a hitch mount? I personally would not trust a hitch mount rack off-road, if only because of your severely reduced departure angles. I'd go for a trailer because at least that distributes the load over another axle.

People put snow or sand or whatever in their pickups for added traction on a snowy road, but honestly, any added weight is not an advantage when off roading. We put a bunch of heavy crap in our trucks not for performance gains, but because we don't like poking holes in our transmissions or door panels, and need something strong to mount a winch.

The other problem is that you're talking about adding a bunch of weight (RTT and dirtbike) high on the vehicle. That's the worst place you can add weight.

 

Thanks also,

Here's my build design:

(Hope these pics come across large enough to make sense, I’m on mobile)






I hear you on the high weight. Hadn’t considered that and I definitely get where that could hurt my capabilities.

I’ve got everything sling lower than the typical RTT setup, but of course it’s a whole lot higher than a skid plate. Definitely food for thought.

 

I know the respective objects are off center and that the bike is a relatively dynamic load.

I’m not an engineer, I can’t do the real math, but I can say that the bike and tent are about the same weight as each other and I’m pretty good at cranking the bike down

 

That’s a really interesting design. I assume a custom design, yeah?

A couple thoughts.

The rtt seems REALLY small. A normal rtt is fairly small, that’s half the size. If it’s just for you, might be okay. But for me, I’d go with a ground tent over that, or, unload the bike, and do one of those bed tent things. For sure prototype that thing with some pvc and a tarp or something, maybe even try to take a nap in it first, or even sleep in it in the back yard.

Another thing is how’r you going to mount the bike? When I have two bikes in my bed, they are never nearly as secure as 1 bike that’s centered, and I use those things that sit between the tire and fender so the forks don’t compress, and use like 3 straps on each bike. A lock-n-load system would be super secure, as long as you reinforce the bed, but I don’t know if you could get it far enough to one side of the bed without hitting the fender first.

 

Most of us aren’t engineers, lol. Though your CAD drawings could have fooled me.

We just build stuff and modify until it works. I’ve honestly never even thought of a design like that, and it’s a really cool idea.

 

Much appreciated Jbrandt,

So, I hear you on the size. Custom indeed and it's tight. 76"x48". Same width as a Tepui 2 person, just 8" shorter on the head/toe axis. And I'm 6'2", so it's really tight. I've laid on it (I've cut the lumber and built the center hinge so far, like I said it's all found materials and I don't think I'm going to have another use for 1" sheathing anytime soon so I don't care if it goes to waste) and I fit, but without the potentially claustrophobic fabric on. I'm hoping to gain another couple inches with the outboard fabric hoops plus mattress elevation as well. It won't be roomy, but I believe I'll be able to lay straight out and call it camping.

As for the bike, plan was just four ratchet straps. The two bed D rings on the bars and the bedrail vs steel tent floor brackets in the back. And I'm hoping to pin it front/back with a custom tailgait half-open-o-matic. Got some simple ideas but that's not really designed yet. If I didn't like the feel of that I'd explore other tie points, but I think that's something I'm just going to have to load up and experiment with. As I said, I know it's going to be a bit more of a 'live' load, but I hope to get it fairly well pinned in.

My main reason for wanting this RTT thing to happen is that we're only staying in each spot for one night and I'd really like to not spend time making camp. If it doesn't work, it doesn't work, and of course it's hardly worth the effort except that I enjoy the making for the making's sake as well.

And one more thanks on the drawing. I can't write my name legibly, but I really enjoy the CAD drawing.

 

This is a prototype so I'm assuming its not shown but there will be a support on the two halves, or at least on one half of the fold-able sections right?

You would rather do this than have a small trailer for dirtbike?
It's cool but idk seems like a lot of compromise.

 

I tend to agree, seems like a lot of compromise, but in the end the concept is really interesting. If he can get it to work, it'd be pretty cool. Maybe a bi-fold design to get more floor space when it's unfolded.

Trailers come with their own sets of compromises.

@MakeItWork have you thought about a roof mounted RTT? There's another member posting about doing a roof mounted one. The roof would likely need to be reinforced to take the weight. Sure, the weight is up high so your center of gravity is really high, but it could solve several problems you'll likely face with your current design. You'd be able to put the bike in the center of the bed which would be more stable and not have to back it in, and you could have a more conventional size, too.

 

Hey guys, thanks for the thoughts!

So, as for your first question, @frenchee , for sure, here it is:



Cross bar to two of the bed bolts, vertical from there to another section of angle iron which supports the inboard panel, a pair of angles on the bed rail just for horizontal control and of course two sides will be resting on the bed in the places that they obviously will be resting. I still need to add some horizontal stability to the passenger-side edge, but I think I've got the vertical handled. Also, I'll just repeat that this is 1" ply, so it's rigid, for all rational purposes. I feel like a single spindle in the center of the plane would provide vertical support if everything around it was up to the task. But I'll get a better feel for everything as it comes together, I still have a ground tent, I can give up on this whole plan any time.

As for your second question, well that's exactly why I created this thread and I'd love to hear more specifics from you. I'm hoping to get perspective on what compromises I'm making with this design, and a trailer would be an excellent alternative to drive discussion. I've got a little 4x8 utility trailer and a welder and I still have time to change the plan if that ends up looking like the better path (of course my trailer has very little ground clearance and I'm not looking to buy it new wheels right now, so I guess it might be a hard sell, but I'm ready to listen).

So yeah, what do you see that I'm sacrificing? Traction is the major X-factor in my mind, I've never really mudded and my sand experience is limited to Pismo in 2wd, do you think it will be easier to pull a trailer through mud than to drive with a heavy bed? I'm not really worried about cargo space, 4 day trip, I think I can slide my food, water, fuel, first aid and extrication gear underneath my 'RTT' without much difficulty, either with a quickie pullout shelf (plywood with a pair of folding legs) or just tying ropes to shit and shoving it in, what else should I be thinking about? By the way, I just noticed your drawer build there, pretty amazing, the ball-bearing rail system is a great idea. I won't have the time before this trip for anything like that, but if this ends up working out I'd definitely be taking a hard look at that as mod inspiration. I wouldn't have your width, but I have full-bed depth available under this thing.

@jbrandt , I remember looking briefly into cab-mounted ones, but I'm not sure how I'd go about it at the moment, I'll have to dig for the thread you're talking about, definitely interested to see. Easier bike loading is certainly appealing, but I think I can suck it up for the short-ish trip. Centered load, of course, is a compelling goal. This trip hopefully won't involve any real off-camber action. If it does, and I haven't come up with a better design, I'll take it slow and in the worst case accept that I made a terrible decision and 'portage' my shit I guess. In the end, I'm feeling confident that soft terrain is going to be my primary adversary on this particular trip, so I'm feeling like it's a 'safe' opportunity to take some measure of risk (risk of shit day, not risk of loss of vehicle), but I will definitely look for that cab-mount option and think hard about it.

I'll think again about trailers too, but I'd really like some more info/thoughts on that first, big change to make on a whim

Thanks again! Hope to hear more!

 

I saw this and got a little excited. Maybe too excited, lol:



Trailers of course have their own disadvantages. Dragging them thru mud is definitely one of them, lol. But with a decent tire selection (on the trailer) and if it's not too heavy, you could do pretty well.

If you've ever watch that 4wdAction show on youtube (Those Aussies), they take some trailers in some REAL hairy shit.

In the end, you'll never know if you don't try.

 

Very much the spirit of this whole project, just doin my best to get myself steered in a reasonable direction to start.

Beautiful rig, by the way

 

Are you talking about that trailer? It’s not mine, just the result of a google search, lol

But I would 100% sport that trailer. Ight expand it for mpre bikes tho.

 

Aw, yeah, it's a badass, and I wouldn't mind the bike either, love my CR, but be cool to dream of plating it (here in CA...)

 

Yeah, a plated EXC350 is on my wishlist. My DRZ250 has been a reliable and fun big to ride, but obviously not the highest performance... But I still keep up with most of the folks I ride with who're on modern 250s and 450s. I don't want a big adventure bike since all I do is single track type stuff. But would be nice to link up trails.

I have this plan in the back on my mind to do the 395 corridor. I'm pretty sure you can do ~90% of it on dirt, with a few linkups on the hwy. Then I'd have my wife or someone else leapfrog and set up camp at the next spot.

My brother has a 790 Adventure, and he does some backcountry stuff with it. I just don't want all that weight. I like to go too fast for having all that weight on me, lol.

 

I hear ya. Mine's a '90 two stroke, got enough oomph for me, but in my case the size argument is more that I like being able to eat shit and get right back up with nothing worse than dirty plastic.

An electric start wouldn't hurt though

 

I believe you, that’s a beautiful looking rig, and a trailer is definitely on the project list. I’m here looking for info (although my window for plans B on this specific trip may have closed), hows yours pull in the sand and mud?