Philadelphia Police violate rights of open carrier at gunpoint

Rmodel65 · Mar 25, 2011

http://www.lildobe.net/PAFOA_Docs/MPOTEC_OC_Update_2009.pdf

Municipal Police Officers’ Education & Training Commission Commonwealth of Pennsylvania

M.P.O.E.T.C. Mandatory In-Service Training Legal Update Course 09-201 45
Municipal Police Officers’ Education & Training Commission Commonwealth of Pennsylvania
IX. UNIFORM FIREARMS ACT UPDATE:
“OPEN CARRY”
Question #1 - What is “open carry”?
Answer #1 - Open carry can be defined
as carrying a legal firearm, loaded or
unloaded, on your person unconcealed,
with or without a valid and lawfully
issued license to carry a firearm.
Question #2 - Is “open carry” legal in
Pennsylvania?
Answer #2 – Yes, but with several
exceptions: The Pennsylvania Uniform
Firearms Act is silent on the specific issue of
open carry. §6106 only prohibits carrying a
firearm in a vehicle or concealed on or about one’s person, except in the person’s
place of abode or fixed place of business, without a license and when no exemption
applies.
Carrying a firearm unconcealed on one’s person does not violate §6106. However,
a person who is engaging in “open carry” of a firearm violates §6106 when that
person enters a vehicle with the gun in his possession and the person does not
possess a valid and lawfully issued license to carry a firearm and is not exempt
from licensing. Also, a firearm cannot be open carried in an area where firearm
possession is generally restricted (i.e. courts, schools, state parks or where
restricted federally).
The exceptions to open carry are as follows:
There is a restriction on open carry during a declared state of emergency. In this
situation the person must be actively engaging in a defense of that person’s life or
property from peril or threat and possesses a valid and lawfully issued license to
carry a firearm or is exempt from licensing. (§6107).
There is a restriction on open carry in a City of the First Class (Philadelphia).
(§6108).
PENNSYLVANIA CRIMES CODE - SELECTED SECTIONS
§6106. Firearms not to be carried without a license.
(1) Except as provided in paragraph (2), any person who carries a
firearm in any vehicle or any person who carries a firearm concealed on or
about his person, except in his place of abode or fixed place of business,
without a valid and lawfully issued license under this chapter commits a
felony of the third degree.
Show Slide 35
Show Slide 36
Instructor Note:
There is a hyperlink to
the District of
Columbia et al. v.
Heller, from
Washington, D.C. in
the event that you get
questions from the
class on this recent
U.S. Supreme court
case.
Instructor Note:
Philadelphia is the only
City of the First Class
in Pennsylvania.
Instructor Note:
General firearms
restrictions under §912
and §913 will be
covered later in this
lesson plan.
M.P.O.E.T.C. Mandatory In-Service Training Legal Update Course 09-201 46
Municipal Police Officers’ Education & Training Commission Commonwealth of Pennsylvania
(2) A person who is otherwise eligible to possess a valid license
under this chapter but carries a firearm in any vehicle or any person who
carries a firearm concealed on or about his person, except in his place of
abode or fixed place of business, without a valid and lawfully issued license
and has not committed any other criminal violation commits a misdemeanor
of the first degree.
LICENSING EXEMPTIONS UNDER §6106
(1) Constables, sheriffs, prison or jail wardens, or their deputies,
policemen of this Commonwealth or its political subdivisions, or other lawenforcement
officers.
(2) Members of the army, navy, marine corps, air force or coast guard of
the United States or of the National Guard or organized reserves when on duty.
(3) The regularly enrolled members of any organization duly organized
to purchase or receive such firearms from the United States or from this
Commonwealth.
(4) Any persons engaged in target shooting with a firearm, if such
persons are at or are going to or from their places of assembly or target
practice and if, while going to or from their places of assembly or target
practice, the firearm is not loaded.
(5) Officers or employees of the United States duly authorized to carry a
concealed firearm.
(6) Agents, messengers and other employees of common carriers, banks,
or business firms, whose duties require them to protect moneys, valuables and
other property in the discharge of such duties.
(7) Any person engaged in the business of manufacturing, repairing, or
dealing in firearms, or the agent or representative of any such person, having in
his possession, using or carrying a firearm in the usual or ordinary course of
such business.
(8) Any person while carrying a firearm which is not loaded and is in a
secure wrapper from the place of purchase to his home or place of business, or to
a place of repair, sale or appraisal or back to his home or place of business, or in
moving from one place of abode or business to another or from his home to a
vacation or recreational home or dwelling or back, or to recover stolen property
under section 6111.1(b)(4) (relating to Pennsylvania State Police), or to a place
of instruction intended to teach the safe handling, use or maintenance of firearms
or back or to a location to which the person has been directed to relinquish
firearms under 23 Pa.C.S. §6108 (relating to relief) or back upon return of the
relinquished firearm or to a licensed dealer’s place of business for
relinquishment pursuant to 23 Pa.C.S § 6108.2 (relating to relinquishment for
consignment sale, lawful transfer or safekeeping) or back upon return of the
relinquished firearm or to a location for safekeeping pursuant to 23 Pa.C.S. §
6108.3 (relating to relinquishment to third party for safekeeping) or back upon
return of the relinquished firearm.
Instructor Note:
"LOADED." A firearm is
loaded if the firing
chamber, the nondetachable
magazine or in the case of a
revolver, any of the
chambers of the cylinder
contain ammunition capable
of being fired. In the case of
a firearm which utilizes a
detachable magazine, the
term shall mean a magazine
suitable for use in said
firearm which magazine
contains such ammunition
and has been inserted in the
firearm or is in the same
container or, where the
container has multiple
compartments, the same
compartment thereof as the
firearm.
Slide 37
Instructor Note: Because of the
specific language used in §6106,
carrying a firearm concealed or
in a vehicle requires a license or
an exemption from licensing,
except in a person’s home or
fixed place of business. In the
absence of an express prohibition
in §6106, the law presumes that
unconcealed or open carry is
lawful except to the degree
regulated by §6107 and §6108.
M.P.O.E.T.C. Mandatory In-Service Training Legal Update Course 09-201 47
Municipal Police Officers’ Education & Training Commission Commonwealth of Pennsylvania
(9) Persons licensed to hunt, take furbearers or fish in this
Commonwealth, if such persons are actually hunting, taking furbearers or
fishing or are going to the places where they desire to hunt, take furbearers or
fish or returning from such places.
(10) Persons training dogs, if such persons are actually training dogs
during the regular training season.
(11) Any person while carrying a firearm in any vehicle which, person
possesses a valid and lawfully issued license for that firearm which has been
issued under the laws of the United States or any other state.
(12) A person who has a lawfully issued license to carry a firearm
pursuant to section 6109 (relating to licenses) and that said license expired
within six months prior to the date of arrest and that the individual is otherwise
eligible for renewal of the license.
(13) Any person who is otherwise eligible to possess a firearm under
this chapter and who is operating a motor vehicle which is registered in the
person’s name or the name of a spouse or parent and which contains a firearm
for which a valid license has been issued pursuant to section 6109 to the spouse
or parent owning the firearm.
(14) A person lawfully engaged in the interstate transportation of a
firearm as defined under 18 U.S.C § 921(a)(3) (relating to definitions) in
compliance with 18 U.S.C. § 926A (relating to interstate transportation of
firearms).
(15) Any person who possesses a valid and lawfully issued license or
permit to carry a firearm which has been issued under the laws of another state,
regardless of whether a reciprocity agreement exists between the
Commonwealth and the state under section 6109(k), provided:
(i) The state provides a reciprocal privilege for individuals
licensed to carry firearms under section 6109.
(ii) The Attorney General has determined that the firearm laws
of the state are similar to the firearm laws of this Commonwealth.
§6108. Carrying firearms on public streets or public property in Philadelphia.
No person shall carry a firearm, rifle or shotgun at any time upon the public
streets or upon any public property in a city of the first class unless:
(1) such person is licensed to carry a firearm; or
(2) such person is exempt from licensing under section 6106(b) of this
title (relating to firearms not to be carried without a license).
Show Slide 38
M.P.O.E.T.C. Mandatory In-Service Training Legal Update Course 09-201 48
Municipal Police Officers’ Education & Training Commission Commonwealth of Pennsylvania
Question #3- What can police legally do when they observe a person engaging in
open carry?
Answer #3- In most cases, the police cannot engage the person in anything other
than a mere encounter. Unless the person engaged in lawful open carry is in
violation of a specific State or Federal firearm prohibition or is carrying in a
restricted area (For example: prohibitions contained in §6105, possession by a
minor §6110.1, possession on school property §912, possession in a court
facility §913, carrying in Philadelphia §6108, carrying in a vehicle, carrying
during a declared state of emergency §6107), the officer would not have specific
reasonable suspicion of criminal activity merely based on observing a person
engaged in open carry. Therefore, a stop and frisk or any other seizure would
not be legally justified.
§ 912. Possession of weapon on school property.
(a) DEFINITION.-Notwithstanding the definition of "weapon" in section 907
(relating to possessing instruments of crime), "weapon" for purposes of this section
shall include but not be limited to any knife, cutting instrument, cutting tool,
nunchuck stick, firearm, shotgun, rifle and any other tool, instrument or implement
capable of inflicting serious bodily injury.
(b) OFFENSE DEFINED.-A person commits a misdemeanor of the first
degree if he possesses a weapon in the buildings of, on the grounds of, or in
any conveyance providing transportation to or from any elementary or
secondary publicly-funded educational institution, any elementary or
secondary private school licensed by the Department of Education or any
elementary or secondary parochial school.
(c) DEFENSE.-It shall be a defense that the weapon is possessed and used in
conjunction with a lawful supervised school activity or course or is possessed for
other lawful purpose.
§ 913. Possession of firearm or other dangerous weapon in court facility.
(a) OFFENSE DEFINED.-A person commits an offense if he: (1) knowingly
possesses a firearm or other dangerous weapon in a court facility or knowingly
causes a firearm or other dangerous weapon to be present in a court facility; or
(2) knowingly possesses a firearm or other dangerous weapon in a court facility
with the intent that the firearm or other dangerous weapon be used in the
commission of a crime or knowingly causes a firearm or other dangerous weapon
to be present in a court facility with the intent that the firearm or other dangerous
weapon be used in the commission of a crime.
(b) GRADING.-
(1) Except as otherwise provided in paragraph (3), an offense under subsection (a)
(1) is a misdemeanor of the third degree.
Instructor Note:
See hyperlinks to:
§ 912 and § 913.
Municipal Police Officer's Education & Training Commission Commonwealth of Pennsylvania
(2) An offense under subsection (a)(2) is a misdemeanor of the first degree.
(3) An offense under subsection (a)(1) is a summary offense if the person was
carrying a firearm under section 6106(b) (relating to firearms not to be carried without
a license) or 6109 (relating to licenses) and failed to check the firearm tinder
subsection (e) prior to entering the court facility.
(c) EXCEPTIONS. - Subsection (a) shall not apply to:
(1) The lawful performance of official duties by an officer, agent or employee of the
United States, the Commonwealth or a political subdivision who is authorized by law
to engage in or supervise the prevention, detection, investigation or prosecution of any
violation of law.
(2) The lawful performance of official duties by a court official.
(3) The carrying of rifles and shotguns by instructors and participants in a course of
instruction provided by the Pennsylvania Game Commission under 34 Pa.C.S. 2704
(relating to eligibility for license).
(4) Associations of veteran soldiers and their auxiliaries or members of organized
armed forces of the United States or the Commonwealth,including reserve
components, when engaged in the performance of ceremonial duties with county
approval.
(5) The carrying of a dangerous weapon or firearm unloaded and in a secure wrapper
by an attorney who seeks to employ the dangerous weapon or firearm as an exhibit or
as a demonstration and who possesses written authorization from the court to bring
the dangerous weapon or firearm into the court facility.
(d) POSTING OF NOTICE.-Notice of the provisions of subsections (a) and (e) shall
be posted conspicuously at each public entrance to each courthouse or other building
containing a court facility and each court facility, and no person shall be convicted of
an offense under subsection (a)(1) with respect to a court facility if the notice was not
so posted at each public entrance to the courthouse or other building containing a
court facility and at the court facility unless the person had actual notice of the
provisions of subsection (a).
(e) FACILITIES FOR CHECKING FIREARMS OR OTHER DANGEROUS
WEAPONS. - Each county shall make available at or within the building
containing a court facility by July 1,2002, lockers or similar facilities at no
charge or cost for the temporary checking of firearms by persons carrying
firearms under section 6106(b) or 6109 or for the checking of other dangerous
weapons that are not otherwise prohibited by law. Any individual checking a
firearm, dangerous weapon or an item deemed to be a dangerous weapon at a
court facility must be issued a receipt. Notice of the location of the facility shall
be posted as required under subsection (d).
M.P.O.E.T.C. Mandatory In-Service Training Legal Update Course 09-201 49
M.P.O.E.T.C. Mandatory In-Service Training Legal Update Course 09-201 50
Municipal Police Officers’ Education & Training Commission Commonwealth of Pennsylvania
(f) DEFINITIONS.-As used in this section, the following words and phrases shall
have the meanings given to them in this subsection:
"COURT FACILITY." The courtroom of a court of record; a courtroom of a
community court; the courtroom of a magisterial district judge; a courtroom of the
Philadelphia Municipal Court; a courtroom of the Pittsburgh Magistrates Court; a
courtroom of the Traffic Court of Philadelphia; judge's chambers; witness rooms;
jury deliberation rooms; attorney conference rooms; prisoner holding cells; offices
of court clerks, the district attorney, the sheriff and probation and parole officers;
and any adjoining corridors.
"DANGEROUS WEAPON." A bomb, grenade, blackjack, sandbag, metal
knuckles, dagger, knife (the blade of which is exposed in an automatic way by
switch, push-button, spring mechanism or otherwise) or other implement for the
infliction of serious bodily injury which serves no common lawful purpose.
"FIREARM." Any weapon, including a starter gun, which will or is designed to
expel a projectile or projectiles by the action of an explosion, expansion of gas or
escape of gas. The term does not include any device designed or used exclusively
for the firing of stud cartridges, explosive rivets or similar industrial ammunition.
Act 1995-66 (S.B. 282), § 2, approved Nov. 22, 1995; Act 1995 Special Session-
17 (H.B. 110), § 1, approved June 13, 1995, eff. in 120 days; Act 1999-59 (S.B.
167), § 1, approved Dec. 15, 1999, eff. in 60 days; Act 2004-207 (S.B. 904), § 2,
approved Nov. 30, 2004, eff. in 60 days.
If an officer can develop reasonable suspicion that criminal activity is afoot, by a
person engaged in open carry, then the temporary seizure of the person and
confiscation of the firearm would be justified, because the person is known to be
armed and dangerous based on the suspected criminal activity and visible
possession of a firearm. A further frisk would also be warranted to ensure the
person was not in possession of any other weapons. If the officer’s investigatory
detention leads to probable cause, then the person may be placed under arrest for
the crime that has been committed. However, if the officer’s suspicion is allayed
then any seized firearms must be returned to the citizen and the citizen must be
released from the investigatory detention. A firearm may be seized from a person
who the officer knows to be prohibited from possessing a firearm under State or
Federal law.
Officers should be aware that citizens may become alarmed or concerned when
they witness persons engaged in open carry. This may be due in part to individual
sensibilities regarding firearms and the fact that persons engaged in open carry are
infrequently encountered in Pennsylvania. However, a citizen’s alarm or concern
does not alone negatively impact the rights of a person engaging in the lawful open
carrying of a firearm. Officers receiving citizen reports of a “man with a gun”
would be prudent to respond to determine the nature of the report. However, the
rights of any person engaged in the lawful open carrying of a firearm must be
carefully considered when interacting with such person. Persons engaged in the
lawful open carrying of a firearm are not subject to seizure of their person or
property based solely on the fact that they are engaging in open carry, nor may they
Show Slide 39
M.P.O.E.T.C. Mandatory In-Service Training Legal Update Course 09-201 51
Municipal Police Officers’ Education & Training Commission Commonwealth of Pennsylvania
be required to produce identification or other documents. A person who is
engaging in open carry in Philadelphia or in an area of declared emergency may be
required to produce a valid and lawfully issued license to carry a firearm or
establish an exemption. Of course, a person engaged in the open carrying of a
firearm may engage in violations of other laws or handle the firearm in an
inappropriate manner which could constitute offenses such as: disorderly conduct,
reckless endangerment, simple assault by physical menace, etc. However, merely
engaging in the open carrying of a firearm would not necessarily constitute such an
offense.
An officer who observes a person who is engaged in the open carrying of a
firearm in the vicinity of a public event attended by the President or other persons
under the protection of the Secret Service must consider whether any violation of
Pennsylvania law is occurring, If there is not a clear violation of the law, it would
be prudent to bring the presence of this person to the attention of the Secret Service
who is empowered under various federal statutes to regulate the possession of
firearms in the vicinity of persons under Secret Service protection.
X. Course Summary
Course Summary and Testing
A. Conduct a Review Session
B. Allow time for student questions
C. Administer test in accordance with MPOETC MIST Testing procedures.
Testing shall be conducted outside the three instructional hours established
for this course.
Thank the course participants for attending and for their
attention during this MPOETC program.
Slide 40 (END)
Instructor Note:
When conducting a
review, instructors
are expected to teach
to the instructional
objectives, conduct a
brief review of the
major topic areas and
re-emphasize the
main ideas of the
course.
Click to expand...

Rmodel65 · Mar 25, 2011

Pogiboy said: ↑

if the officer feels his life is threatened then he did what he did and to me that was justifyable. a cop can only make 1 mistake and its hello heaven for him. cant blame him.the guy just didnt follow instructions right away. peace. civil rights end when other peoples life are in danger.
Click to expand...

the only person whos life was in danger was the guy who was carrying openly....men with guns were threatening his life....

TacoTabe · Mar 25, 2011

Rmodel65 said: ↑

oh yea aggravated assault for exercising civil rights is always the what you gotta do...

On the issue of whether a firearm, by itself, justifies detaining and investigating a person, there
are many federal cases addressing the issue. United States v. Ubiles, 224 F.3d 213 (3d Cir.
2000) declares that possession of a firearm in public, with no other circumstances present, does
not justify a stop. "For all the officers knew, even assuming the reliability of the tip that Ubiles
possessed a gun, Ubiles was . . . lawfully exercising his right . . . to possess a gun in public." See
also United States v. Dudley, 854 F. Supp. 570 (S.D.Ind. 1994), in which the court declared that
a report of persons with guns did not justify an investigative stop. "In short, the Government
failed to establish . . . that some reasonable suspicion of criminal activity, based on articulable
facts, justified this seizure. And, if the stop itself is unlawful, neither Terry nor Michigan v.
Long authorize the police to search the suspects or the suspect's vehicle for weapons, even if the
officers reasonably fear for their safety."
Likewise, the U.S. Supreme Court in Florida v. J.L., 529 U.S. 266 (2000), declared that there is
no "gun exception" to the Fourth Amendment.
Click to expand...

It's not an issue of whether or not gun's have anything to do with the 4th amendment. If the cops stop you, whether the encounter is consenual(meaning you can walk away at any time) or not, it is the officer's perrogative(sic) to secure your weapon for his/her safety, and return it to you when the encounter is over.

To refuse to cooperate simply because you feel you were unjustly stopped is STUPID. You can think they violated your 4th amendment rights all you want, but I ask you this: Who're you going to complain to about your rights if you refuse the officer's orders and he kills you? Sure, maybe you'll be 'right' but you'll be dead too...

Common sense, folks. The cops stop you and you have a gun, tell them you've got the gun and a permit. Keep your hands up and away from the gun, dont make any sudden movements. Maybe the cop doesn't know you have the right to carry that gun, and maybe he is an asshole, a combunation that results in you being mis-treated- but better to live to tell the tale than to be dead.

Rmodel65 · Mar 25, 2011

bridgcat said: ↑

If it's a Police Officer...yeah! If he had cooperated it would have been much easier on him IMO.
Click to expand...

depends on if its a tier 1,2 or 3 encounter...a tier 1 encounter youre always free to walk away from.... that is why asking if youre free to go establishes if youre in tier 1 or high...if tier 1 you say have a good day and go about your business

bridgcat · Mar 25, 2011

Rmodel65 said: ↑

depends on if its a tier 1,2 or 3 encounter...a tier 1 encounter youre always free to walk away from.... that is why asking if youre free to go establishes if youre in tier 1 or high...if tier 1 you say have a good day and go about your business
Click to expand...

It's obviously not tier 1 though...the guy should have cooperated. I don't think it's as much of a 4th ammendment issue as it is an issue of this guy being an idiot and wanting to stir up trouble for the police.

TacoTabe · Mar 25, 2011

Rmodel65 said: ↑

http://www.lildobe.net/PAFOA_Docs/MPOTEC_OC_Update_2009.pdf

Municipal Police Officers’ Education & Training Commission Commonwealth of Pennsylvania
Click to expand...

Since you posted this, I assume you read the part stating that open carry is NOT legal in Philly? And also, that open carry in Philly IS grounds to be stopped?

Matic · Mar 25, 2011

Rmodel65 said: ↑

have you ever seen someone murdered in front of you and not possessed the tools needed to protect your own life or others in the vicinity? I have....
Click to expand...

Booya.

Brunes · Mar 25, 2011

Hooray for no win arguments!!

TacoTabe · Mar 25, 2011

The sad reality of this is that this guy will raise a huge stink, file lawsuits with ACLU and other groups, and it will be a big headache for the city and the PD. The city will respond by urging officers not to stop people for open carry, even if it is illeagal within the city limits. Then a cop will get shot and killed by an un-licensed shit bag.

And when everyone gets into a big uproar and they start restricting permissable carry, and stop renewing permits for people, I hope he is the first person to be negetively affected by the restrictions.

Or better yet, he gets stopped for ILLEGALLY carrying in Philly and gets plugged by some cop. Problem solved!

Rmodel65 · Mar 25, 2011

TacoTabe said: ↑

Since you posted this, I assume you read the part stating that open carry is NOT legal in Philly? And also, that open carry in Philly IS grounds to be stopped?
Click to expand...

it says nothing of the sort...reading comp must escape you this morning i assume your worked the night shift?....it says that you must be licensed to carry in general in philly even OC(which is an unlicensed acitivity in the rest of the commonwealth on foot)...it says you can stop and check, but the real question is the carrying of an open weapon in philly an element of the offense or an affirmative defense??

if its an element of the offense that means you must specifically know the person is unlicensed to stop them forcibly....

if being licensed is an affirmative defense to the charge of carrying unlicensed in philly then they can stop and check to see if your are licensed but i dont see the courts allowing the detention at gun point if he wasnt committing any furtive movements....

Rmodel65 · Mar 25, 2011

TacoTabe said: ↑

It's not an issue of whether or not gun's have anything to do with the 4th amendment. If the cops stop you, whether the encounter is consenual(meaning you can walk away at any time) or not, it is the officer's perrogative(sic) to secure your weapon for his/her safety, and return it to you when the encounter is over.

To refuse to cooperate simply because you feel you were unjustly stopped is STUPID. You can think they violated your 4th amendment rights all you want, but I ask you this: Who're you going to complain to about your rights if you refuse the officer's orders and he kills you? Sure, maybe you'll be 'right' but you'll be dead too...

Common sense, folks. The cops stop you and you have a gun, tell them you've got the gun and a permit. Keep your hands up and away from the gun, dont make any sudden movements. Maybe the cop doesn't know you have the right to carry that gun, and maybe he is an asshole, a combunation that results in you being mis-treated- but better to live to tell the tale than to be dead.
Click to expand...

is has everything to do with the 4th amendment....have you read it lately??

The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.
Click to expand...

was the man stopped secure in his person, papers and effect? what crime was he committing because open carry is legal ina city of the first class....

in GA it is not the officers prerogative to secure at weapons at stops....the person must be armed and dangerous to do so...any of the cases you read state just being armed isnt enough that you have to be able to articulate that someone is also dangerous

http://www.georgiapacking.org/caselaw/statevjones.htm

After an officer seized a rifle from plain view and ran the serial number to see if it was stolen, the Court of Appeals ruled that an officer does not have "carte blanch authority" to secure all weapons at a traffic stop. In order to justify a search of a vehicle for weapons, some conduct on the part of the occupants such as furtive movements or other indications of danger to the officer must be shown, and the officer must have an "objectively reasonable" belief that the occupants of a vehicle are "potentially dangerous."Essentially overrules Megesi v. State. Megesi was a physical precedent only (meaning it is persuasive, but not binding on lower courts). Jones is a binding precedent (meaning all judges concur). The rule in Jones is that stopping someone (Tier 2 or higher) and seizing a weapon for inspection is not permissible, unless there is reasonable articulable suspicion of a crime based on specific and articulable facts which, taken together with the rational inferences from those facts, reasonably warrant the officer in believing that the suspect is dangerous and the suspect may gain immediate control of weapons.

Click to expand...

Packman73 · Mar 25, 2011

PhillyTacoma said: ↑

It is a constitutional right to own weapons NOT CARRY THEM.
Click to expand...

Um, I'm wondering what your definition of 'right to bear arms' is?

TacoTabe · Mar 25, 2011

I may indeed be mis-understanding something here, and if so, I apologize for my ignorance. Could you clarify this:

Carrying a firearm unconcealed on one’s person does not violate §6106. However,
a person who is engaging in “open carry” of a firearm violates §6106 when that
person enters a vehicle with the gun in his possession and the person does not
possess a valid and lawfully issued license to carry a firearm and is not exempt
from licensing. Also, a firearm cannot be open carried in an area where firearm
possession is generally restricted (i.e. courts, schools, state parks or where
restricted federally).
The exceptions to open carry are as follows:
There is a restriction on open carry during a declared state of emergency. In this
situation the person must be actively engaging in a defense of that person’s life or
property from peril or threat and possesses a valid and lawfully issued license to
carry a firearm or is exempt from licensing. (§6107).
There is a restriction on open carry in a City of the First Class (Philadelphia).
(§6108).

Look, I'm not against open carry. I'm just advocating common sense. My shirt rides up and exposes my gun at times. I have bent down to get something off a shelf at Wally World or Home Depot and reached back and felt my gun exposed, turned and saw someone else in the store had noticed. I didnt bother to identify myself, and you what? Nobody has ever freaked out, nobody called the cops.

Open carry is not a big deal, but have the sense to know that you are asking for an additional headache, versus simply concealing the dang thing.

derekabraham · Mar 25, 2011

I'm sorry, but reading about the hard core gun activists and how they think is just utterly hilarious.

Have some common sense people.

Rmodel65 · Mar 25, 2011

TacoTabe said: ↑

I may indeed be mis-understanding something here, and if so, I apologize for my ignorance. Could you clarify this:

Carrying a firearm unconcealed on one’s person does not violate §6106. However,
a person who is engaging in “open carry” of a firearm violates §6106 when that
person enters a vehicle with the gun in his possession and the person does not
possess a valid and lawfully issued license to carry a firearm and is not exempt
from licensing. Also, a firearm cannot be open carried in an area where firearm
possession is generally restricted (i.e. courts, schools, state parks or where
restricted federally).
The exceptions to open carry are as follows:
There is a restriction on open carry during a declared state of emergency. In this
situation the person must be actively engaging in a defense of that person’s life or
property from peril or threat and possesses a valid and lawfully issued license to
carry a firearm or is exempt from licensing. (§6107).
There is a restriction on open carry in a City of the First Class (Philadelphia).
(§6108).
Click to expand...

didnt read 6108 down further....

§6108. Carrying firearms on public streets or public property in Philadelphia.
No person shall carry a firearm, rifle or shotgun at any time upon the public
streets or upon any public property in a city of the first class unless:
(1) such person is licensed to carry a firearm; or
(2) such person is exempt from licensing under section 6106(b) of this
title (relating to firearms not to be carried without a license).
Click to expand...

unlike every other city in PA you have to have a license to carry openly

T@co_Pr3runn3r · Mar 25, 2011

brianr said: ↑

coppers enforce the laws...they dont make them, and arent ABOVE them.
Click to expand...

........and apparently aren't clued up enough on what current laws are in all cases. The dude could have been more cooperative than he already was but that one cop doing all the cussing and shit couldn't take a second to listen and assess whether there even was a threat, acting like he knows everyone in the city who should legally be able to carry. He doesn't even know the all the current hangun laws, obviously since the guy was released because he commited no crime, so really doubting he knows who all is OK to carry. Just more ass backwards guilty until proven innocent shit for us all to fall victim to because of criminals' behavior. Yeah, 1/4 of the population is a criminal so let's just treat all people that way for our safety. I'm pretty sure the shit is "to serve and protect".....the public. I am completely in favor of cops protecting thereselves in the line of duty but this was the cop being a bigger threat to public safety and civil rights than the supposed threat guy was. There was much more ego in play than self preservation. Checking for his hangun license after you've violated his rights is just a bit lame. Why didn't that get asked right after the cop had control of the gun instead of all the other cussing and intimidation? I myself will stick to concealed carry because of this lame nonsense.

PhillyTacoma · Mar 25, 2011

PackerfanXD said: ↑

Um, I'm wondering what your definition of 'right to bear arms' is?
Click to expand...

If it was your right to carry a weapon why do you need to apply for a permit?

Rmodel65 · Mar 25, 2011

PhillyTacoma said: ↑

If it was your right to carry a weapon why do you need to apply for a permit?
Click to expand...

because the state is violating that right....

they are charging a fee to exercise a right and it is unconstitutional....why is Philly violating the right is a better question??

no state shall convert a right into a privilege, license it, and charge a fee therefor.
-murdok v. pennsylvania, 319 US 105

if the state converts a right into a privilege, the citizen can ignore the license and fee and engage in the right with impunity.
-shuttleworth v. city of birmingham alabama 373 US 262

the court is to protect against any encroachment of Constitutionally secure rights
-boyd v. u.s., 116 US 616

where rights secured by the Constitution are involved, there can be no legislation which would abrogate them.
-miranda v. arizona, 384 US 436 (1966)

an unconstitutional act is not law; it confers no rights; it imposes no duties; affords no protection; it creates no office; it is in legal contemplation as though it had never been passed.
-norton v. shelby county, 118 US 425

Brunes · Mar 25, 2011

T@co_Pr3runn3r said: ↑

........and apparently aren't clued up enough on what current laws are in all cases. The dude could have been more cooperative than he already was but that one cop doing all the cussing and shit couldn't take a second to listen and assess whether even was a threat, acting like he knows everyone in the city who should legally be able to carry. He doesn't even know the all the current hangun laws, obviously since the guy was released because he commited no crime, so really doubting he knows who all is OK to carry. Just more ass backwards guilty until proven innocent shit for us all to fall victim to because of criminals' behavior. Yeah, 1/4 of the population is a criminal so let's just treat all people that way for our safety. I'm pretty sure the shit is "to serve and protect".....the public. I am completely in favor of cops protecting thereselves in the line of duty but this was the cop being a bigger threat to public safety and civil rights than the supposed threat guy was. Checking for his hangun license after you've violated his rights is just a bit lame. Why didn't that get asked right after the cop had control of the gun instead of all the other cussing and intimidation?
Click to expand...

Check out Castle Rock vs Gonzales. Police aren't required to serve and protect....They are really just opportunistic historians. If they HAPPEN to be where a crime is BEING committed...they can stop it. But otherwise they are going to be behind the ball.

T@co_Pr3runn3r · Mar 25, 2011

Brunes said: ↑

Check out Castle Rock vs Gonzales. Police aren't required to serve and protect....They are really just opportunistic historians. If they HAPPEN to be where a crime is BEING committed...they can stop it. But otherwise they are going to be behind the ball.
Click to expand...

Then maybe serve and protect should not be plastered on their cars or anywhere else so that they don't get sued for false advertising? That makes about as much sense as illegal immigration not being a crime or cops not being able to inquire about a person's citizenship which basically equals public endangerment.

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