Positive camber on stock OR

Exactly this. Most vehicles won't show camber wear unless you're talking 2-3 degrees. Cupping is a more common issue but speaking as someone who did alignments for a few years, 9/10 times, tire wear on one side is toe.

 

Perspective distortion is real. Aside from the fact the lens they're using doesn't have correction (and wouldn't make fuck all difference for this discussion anyway), your eyes will try to use nearby lines to determine what is straight vs what is not.

A little dickish (I'm pot, calling the kettle black here) but spot on. Worked in the industry for 8 years, 3-4 of which were customer facing and the numebr of people who think they can eyeball alignment is insane. Even my manager the last few years, the son of the owner who had started the tire and alignment business 60 years prior, and who had worked there for 35 years couldn't do it.

Though on a technicality, you can do caster on live axle with adjustable trailing arms but camber is going to be something bent. I can't think of any vehicles off the top of my head that have them though - it was normally something for a Jeep or Super Duty lift.

 

Ok so it sounds like we may just be seeing an optical illusion. But either way the tires do have some positive camber from the factory? And if you really are seeing a lot of positive camber something is broken/bent? Again, mine looks like many do off the lot. Optical illusion? Maybe. I'm getting an alignment soon after my lift anyways so guess we'll really see then.

 

Anyone else starring wheel not centered when straight. I got an alignment and nothing is bent/broken.

 

It happens...
Tech didn't set the steering wheel properly prior to alignment. But, to be fair these trucks have large spec for free play in the steering wheel.

How do you know nothing's bent/broken? Eyeball?
What's your SAI and included angle?

 

That is a complicated question. When you change an angle to improve something, you have a negative impact on something else. In general positive camber will give you a better more comfortable ride. You will see positive camber on tractors because it improves tracking and makes turning easier. If you go negative on camber which is common in the race world, you get better cornering.

The further complications are how these angles are adjusted. Caster is part of this adjustment and when you are changing camber, you change caster and you also change the position of where your tire sits in the wheel well (known as set back). That is why you will hear some people claim that their tires don't rub when others will say that theirs rub like a champ.

 

Thanks. I actually wondered this myself. I understand after I get my lift Saturday, that I want to get it aligned and tell the alignment guy to maximize caster closest to 3 degrees as possible. (I am installing JBA UCAs and 6112s for a 2" lift). Then I thought... wouldn't this bring my tires closer to the front mud guard and if I'm already kind of close... won't it NOT help clearance? Does a degree or 2 push it noticeably far, or is it only millimeters? I'm only running one size larger tire size (no 33"s or anything) but wouldn't want to be rubbing all of a sudden.

 

I blew up my clutch and had everything inspected for rock damage.

 

Yes, increasing caster means the tire will sweep closer to the mud flap. The new control arms should help because their geometry is different than stock, but unless you get an adjustable ball joint, your adjustments are limited. Camber and caster are adjusted using the same eccentric cam bolts which means that you only have so much adjustment. These adjustments come from the lower control arm. If you take a under your truck at the position of those adjusters, you can get a better idea of what happens when you make adjustments.

I would have to double check the specs, but 3 sounds like the high end of the range. The more caster you put in, the more the chance of rubbing. Somewhere between 2 and 2.5 is probably what I would shoot for.

 

@Sungod You sure sound like a expert, maybe you can help teach a class to shops so they can align lifted trucks. I haven't found one shop that knows or gives a fawk about alignment or tire balancing. I forgot what we are even arguing about, but I have been aligning many lifted trucks including my Cummins for years in my driveway with angle iron and a tape measure and I always get 50-60k out of mud terrain tires.

I guarantee Toyota knows what they are doing, but no other vehicle looks either "cambered out" or "toe'd in" as these new trucks do.

 

I thought more positive caster would move the tire farther away from the mudflap?

 

Thanks. Some guys over in the JBA thread suggest as close to 3 as possible. Just wondering how much that brings your tires forward

 

My truck had a case of Toe Out from the Factory

 

It depends on the geometry of the UCA...
If it adds just caster, then yes it moves the wheel closer to the mudflap; the UCA ball joint is further back.
If it also adds some negative camber it allows the LCA cams to achieve the caster adjustment; the LCA ballpoint is further forward.

Increased caster should be used only to gain mechanical advantage over a larger tire. Most use it as a tool for clearance purposes. Too much caster can cause ill side effects such as bumpsteer and excessive camber lift in turns.

 

I just verified from a member here that the JBA UCAs won't move it closer to the front due to the geometry of the aftermarket UCA.

 

Not an expert, but know my way around a Hunter machine. I agree on shops aligning lifted trucks. Not many want to deal with them. Not because they can't, they are lazy or just don't want to work with aftermarket parts that may not be as easy to work with as OEM parts. Another challenge is trying to get it back within spec. You use up all the adjustment and it is still out of spec, then what do you do? It puts the tech in a tough spot because they do the best they can, but it still is wrong so you can't really charge someone. Alignments are either on or they are off. Close doesn't really help.

 

Geez this is scaring me. I'm getting my lift installed Saturday. 2" lift with JBA UCAs. Am I really gonna have an issue getting things aligned? Its hardly a drastic lift. There are no real off road shops near me. Just firestones, TFTs and the stealerships.

 

Update: I got my truck lifted 2" with JBA UCAs that allow for 3 degrees + caster. Had an alignment right after and had them shoot for 3 degrees caster. Got it for the most part. The positive camber illusion or whatever is still there. More pronounced now. However my camber numbers seemed fine and were slightly positive. One thing is that the steering wheel isn't perfectly centered now when tracking straight. This is usually because the tech didn't align it correctly right?

 

Although Perspective/lens distortion is real... this picture is accurate to how they look in real life. As someone said... maybe they do stick out with positive camber but when driving it all straightens out?

 

I get that, but your eyes will lie to you as to what is correct and what is not. The lines of the fender and body are not perfectly vertical and the tire isn't symmetrical due to how it deforms under load - these are what your eyes will use as a reference. Even having a bit too much toe can throw off the perspective of the tire. You can judge one side vs the other fairly accurately but the only way you will correctly ballpark the actual camber measurement is with a bubble level or large woodworking square on the wheel measured on flat and level ground like a garage.

As for the last bit, I'd need to know the geometry of the front suspension but this is frequently what happens. Unless you have a perfect parallelogram for the upper/lower arms and their mounting points at the frame and spindle, you will always have a varying camber as the suspension loads and unloads. With full size trucks, it's common to have them set with a bias one direction or the other because they'll gain or lose angle under typically expected loads. It was normal for us to compensate alignments on work trucks with tool boxes and the like because of uneven tire wear caused by the factory spec not compensating enough for this.