Recurring Tire Imbalance

I'm a little wordy, so just bear with my explanations and details ... especially the ones you may not have needed to know. Also, I only have a beginners understanding of most anything I talk about when it comes to automobiles so don't toss me off as being completely retarded...just yet

The issue: Having to rebalance tires after almost every tire rotation

Side Effects: Steering wheel shimmy around 60mph and tire cupping

Truck Description: 2011 TRD Sport 4x4

Oil Change/Tire Rotation Schedule: Every 5,000 miles

Driving conditions: Coastal location, 70 mile round trip commute M-F cruise set on average at 70mph, off road on Sand 10-15 times out of the year and on Snow 1-3 times out of the year.

Timeline:
September 2010 Purchased Truck, brand new, with every mile to my name.

August 2011 Major accident. Not even a year yet, damn! Got hit directly into the right front tire and it shifted my entire front end. I about beat a bitch. 4 weeks later I got my truck out of the body shop with suspension, tire, wheel, power steering, alignment and more major parts replaced. Truck rolled like nothing happened for a while, I some times have a strange phenomenon with power steering but that story is for a different time.

The Damage


March 2012 New set of tires installed. Stock spec’d, 265/65R17 Goodyear Assurance CS Fuel Max.

November 2012 Out of the blue, first rebalance needed… I remember getting my oil changed and tires rotated like I normally do, but when I took off down the highway and got to 60mph my steering wheel began to shake. I took it back to the garage to have them balance and they stated that 1 front tire was imbalanced. I kept in mind that the tire was on the back before the rotation, so it could have been imbalanced for a while and I hadn’t noticed until it got put up front. Still, after getting that 1 tire balanced, I started having to get my tires balanced after almost each tire rotation from then on out.

January 2014 I notice all my tires are cupped … with all the bouncing, what would you expect, right? Because of this, my garage decided to check the alignment (though I had no side to side pulling) but no adjustments were needed. We only briefly chatted about suspension being an issue but chalked it up to imbalance and my tires being low-end.

March 2014 I started using a different garage, still the same issues occur with balancing.

April 2014 New set of tires installed. Bigger size spec, BFG All-Terrain KOs at 265/70R17. Got them balanced during the install and got my truck aligned… still though, after each tire rotation I discovered a shake at 60mph. As always, I get my tires balanced and I’m good to go until I rotate again.

Theory: I’m leaning towards the suspension but I am up for any other interpretations. The fact that I had so much work done to my front end after the wreck brings me to that suspicion but I have had no other issues such as alignment or anything beyond balancing.

Game Plan: I just had an oil change and tire rotation a couple of weeks ago at my garage. Sure enough, I took off down the road and started feeling a shimmy after 60mph. I decided to take my truck to the dealership this time and have them balance the tires instead of my garage. Toyota had to balance all 4 tires from what they reported and then also noted that I still had a slight bounce due to the size of my tires. I plan on taking my truck back to the dealership once I’ve driven 5,000 miles and have them re-check the balance on my tires. I am assuming that at least the front tire(s) will be out of balance. From this I guess I can narrow down what the cause is but I can’t say what it could be further than general suspension issues. What do you guys think?

 

Maybe you have a driveline vibration of some kind. Not saying it is, just an idea. Some tires are just a bitch to balance. Mine won't balance. But you've gone through 2 set with the same vibe issue. Do you have the balance sheets?

 

Have you ever thought about having the 'frame' checked ?

And I mean..... you had a 'major accident' in the front end, the frame could be slightly tweaked/twisted/bent. If there's a problem with the frame, there's nothing you can do to 'over-come' that (other than fixing the frame itself).

Just a thought.....

 

One thing that I've learned from working on cars is to not make unrelated changes while you are trying to solve a problem. And when trying to solve a problem, try correcting one thing at a time. If it gets worse, then undo the 'correction'.

An issue that you now have is the new larger ties. This forum has a massive number of posts dealing with vibration of large ties.

On the other hand, it only happens when you rotate. The tires are balanced off the truck, true? That indicates to me that the ties are aligned differently in different locations.

Have you ever tried rotating the ties back to their original places to see if it goes back to no vibration? If that works, then it's not the balance. I would think, then, it has something to do with alignment.

If your frame alignment is funky due to the accident, then that greatly complicates getting the wheels and the frame all pointing the right direction.

The thing that's very strange is that if the wheels balance, off the truck, and then no vibration when put on the truck, then that success is independent of the frame. Rotating them later shouldn't make a difference.

The good news is that the vibration does go away when you balance the tires. Are you getting uniform wear on the tires???

It would be fun to balance the wheels, confirm no vibration. Number them with chaulk to be sure no confusion. Rotate them, confirm vibration. Rotate them back, confirm no vibration. This would at least make sure there is no coincidence. It would be very strange, indeed!

 

I have not been collecting the balance sheets, unfortunantly. I am normally great on keeping paper work but have failed to insist on getting the read outs for this. I will start from now on though. I think keeping the Driveline in mind is a great consideration! I am getting a list of key components together to read up on so I can make sense of their operation.

I didn't even consider the frame being bent. Though that sounds horrifying, that could definitely be the underlying issue (I was hit hard!). I don't know the logistics enough, but could it be that if the frame was bent that it could slowly started putting all other eliminates out of alignment and thus cause imbalance? I didn't start having balancing issues until a little over a year later from the accident.

You are absolutely right! I know I have opened up a can of worms here by putting bigger tires on. They were differently not a completely practical purchase if I were to be honest. I guess my truck in general wasn't a practical purchase seeing I communite 70 miles round trip a day for work. I should have gotten a Prius...SAID NO ONE EVER jk

I have not rotated the tires back to their orginal location before the rotation, but it would definitely be worth a test. So far I have uniform wear on my tires (on my new ones), the only wear that was happening abnormally on my last set of tires was the cupping.

What I have noticed though from the garages balancing my tires is that, they don't necessarily always put the tires back on the truck in the same spot they took them off. I like to be a sponge and learn about what is going on but I get in a situation where if I start bringing up things to the garage or asking questions about their work they can sometimes get defensive and then I am not quite sure they are working with me honestly. At that point I feel like I am at their mercy because of my little knowledge. I am definitely going to be chaulking the tires when I take them back my next visit so I am getting some consistancy with my testing.

Me too!!! I am really glad everyone is mentioning the frame though because I hadn't even considered that as being a portion of the ensemble. Hello, the frame is like the backbone...

Thanks so much guys for your input, this really helps!

 

I'm an old guy and have learned some things. So please don't take this like I'm preaching. I've been through the same stuff and learned the same way. So I'm not saying I'm smarter or anything like that. Maybe I travelled a different path. Today, only older. Alas.

Here is something else I've learned. When someone is a so called expert and they aren't happy to talk to you, happy to share information, perhaps even happy to make a guess or a promise, then that is because they are insecure about what they know, or about the quality of their work. They are always always always hidding something.

It tough figuring out what they are hidding. As a customer, that shouldn't be your job. They might not even know themselves what they are hidding since it could be a habit from childhood to bluff knowlegdge, to do stupid stuff and then to hide it.

And make sure they actually say something worthwhile. The people who just start bs'ing about everything are just as bad. As they are talking to you, ask yourself, "would I talk to someone this way?" A great sign is when you ask a question, say about balancing a tire, and three minutes later they are talking about their son in college, and you haven't learned a single thing.

Oh, and, if they say something like they don't want to tell you cause you'll just take that knowledge to a different mechanic, then tell them to put all of that priceless information into a book, and sell books.

You are paying with real currency, true? You deserve to get your money worth. That includes excellent work and excellent customer service.

Keep shopping for an excellent mechanic. Don't try to educate them or make them see your way. Find a new one. That, I think, would be an excellent first step to solving your problem. Finding a good mechanic is tough tough tough. But they are out there, I promise. Find one who you can trust, and who you can relate to on a personal level.

Only what this dumb old guy thinks. Other opinions may vary.

 

Wondering if your garage is using the proper adapter with their tire machine ?
tsu00296.pdf


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One other thing, tire balance, all tires being properly balanced, is independent of rotating the tires. They should be just as balanced before and after.

A poorly balanced tire in the back would be less noticeable than in the front. When it's moved up front maybe it's more noticeable because you are feeling it in the steering wheel?

Furthermore, a tire balance should last a long long time. The life of the tire, I think.

There are so many things. You could have a rotor imbalance that just luckily got evened out by a tire imbalance. The thing is that's a long shot. There are so many possibilities.

Vibration problems are common. And mechanics to solve them every day. A good mechanic should be able to sort your vibration problem out very quickly.

 

Is it possible that improper tire rotation ever causes vibration, like when crossing over when not supposed to, etc?

 

It would depend on how much and where the frame is bent. It could be tweaked or twisted, it could be shifted side to side, or literally bent in the front. Who knows.... Slight or not so slight.

My first gen truck hit the ground hard offroading at one point...and it knocked something out of whack. Toyota could get it in allignment specs - but the one side (settings) was maxed out to get it within spec. The truck ran fine for a long time....until I started noticed cupping on the inside of the tires.

It's worth a look......

 

Let's review ... before the OP starts paying mechanic more money to 'look at the frame'...

Runs great.
Rotate tires and it vibrates .
Tire wear is uniform.
Mechanic has tires rebalanced every rotation.
Mechanic causes OP to worry about discussing it.

I wonder if the tires and/or wheels might have been improperly mounted?
Or, a poorly balanced tire on the back got rotated to the front?
Or, she needs a new mechanic?

Wouldn't those be the easiest explanations?
.

 

After all those answers - I come around to:

You may simply be overthinking this. I *always* balance my tires at every rotation to avoid vibrations. Tires will wear, and they don't wear perfectly evenly. Get a shop that's good at using a "road force" balancer, rotate and balance very 5000, and be happy.

 

At this point I have used 3 different garages while having to deal with this imbalance issue (2 local and 1 Dealership), so I am hoping at least 1 of them is using the right equipment for balancing but you never know.

As for proper rotation, this is something I really try to check on each time they are rotated (every 5,000mi) to make sure a) they did rotate them and b) they were rotated in the right order. The only times my tires have not been rotated in the right order was after my truck was brought back to the garage post an oil change/tire rotation. I drove off and had vibration in the steering, so I brought it back. After getting my tires balanced, the garage did not put the tires back on the way they took them off. This has happened a couple of different times and ultimately throws off my testing.

There is a possibility that the tires and wheels had been improperly mounted but this will be my second set of tires that has had this same imbalance issue. And just to complicate things even more... It should be noted that the garage I use to install my tires is outside of the 3 garages I use for an oil change/tire rotation service. This garage is strictly for putting new tires on my truck (through tirerack.com) and aligning if needed. Maybe they improperly mounted for both sets??

I'm not opposed to checking the frame as it has my attention and I can also live with having to balance my tires after every rotation as I have been doing; I just wanted to throw it out there to TW and see what some others thought of it... I guess in the end it's no different than the human body aging and you having to take meds you never had to before in order to keep your body balanced.

I am still in the market for a garage I can trust and wants to help me learn. Car repairs/parts aren't cheap and I just don't want to be ripped off. I will pay for what has to be done to keep my vehicle in good condition but I just want some honest work. I'm not confrontational and my little knowledge should not pose as a threat to a mechanic so hopefully someone out there can work with me and wants to be build a relationship.

Because there are times when I don't have vibrations in my steering wheel after a tire rotation, I do suspect that the imbalancing could be coming from the front end somehow. I am thinking this because, when the tires are rotated from the front, they go to the back. If a tire that has become imbalanced on the front is now in the back, I more than likely won't feel it in my steering wheel. So when I go for another rotation, that imbalanced tire is now in the front. I drive off and feel vibration and need rebalancing. This is why since getting my tires balanced this last time that after I have driven 5,000mi I will get my tires checked before rotation and see if any of them are imbalanced and go from there. Does that seem like a good game plan?

 

Hmmmmm. Intelligent, logical, creative. Surely it can't work?

Love it! Fantastic idea.

Added idea possibly ... Mark these tires so you know exactly which ones were imbalanced.

 

Keep thinking about your idea. You are on to something good. Refine it further. You are very smart. Don't take any s*** from any mechanic.

 

Oh one other thing. You might have to try a million mechanics to find one excellent. It's almost like marriage. Extremely difficult. You are literally handing them your property worth $30,000 and saying, "Have at it! I'll be back tomorrow." How many people would you trust with $30,000? That's what you're searching for. Someone you trust with your $30,000. AND pay them to hold it! Not many are worthy.

 

Something you could try at home to check the frame.... This is a redneck method - so, it won't necessarily pickup on any 'fine irregularities'.

I did this method on my Jeep that was in a rear-end collision that was totaled. We bought it back from the insurance company and thought we could rebuild it, until ....discovered the frame was bent.

Basically, you're making a couple plumb bobs with magnets (strong), string, and some lead weights (fishing weights?). After you make the plumb bobs - put the magnets on opposite corners (on the frame). The string must be long enough for the plumb bobs to almost touch the floor. Measure the distance between the two plumb bobs. Then...put the magnets on the opposite corners - making sure they're in the EXACT locations as the first run. Measure. Compare measurements. You get the idea.....

I don't know what 'out of spec' would be - but at least it'll give you an idea of how close they are (or not).

 

Nice idea to see how square it is. And if the plumb bobs are equally as long you could also measure how flat the frame is.

Yet of course the frame isn't going to cause the wheels to be out of balance. if the op balances the wheels and the vibration goes away plus she is getting uniform tire wear, then it's pretty much solved and all is ok?

 

You might try balance beads in the tires. I had a set of generals that just wouldn't balance. I ran the beads and it helped.

http://www.innovativebalancing.com/chart.htm

 

Yes, but this thread is strange. Not the OP, but the situation. If I understand ....

Her tires *do* balance.

They stay balanced.

They only become unbalanced after they are rotated. Then they are balanced again. Everything is fine until they are rotated the next time.

Sounds strange to me. Not the OP. The situation sounds very strange.