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Six speed manual injustice, my long winded rant starts here:

Discussion in '2nd Gen. Tacomas (2005-2015)' started by squamish VFR, Mar 8, 2011.

  1. Mar 8, 2011 at 12:39 AM
    #1
    squamish VFR

    squamish VFR [OP] Well-Known Member

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    First let me start by saying I'm not a Toyota hater but I've been a pro (marine & heavy duty) mechanic for 20+ years and for what these things cost I have expectations of quality...thus far they've not really been met. I have not seen a thread about this issue in particular so for anyone who finds it maybe you can benefit from what I've learned and have a clear understanding of what you are getting if you choose to buy a manual transmission. Also I'm hoping someone will tell me that I'm wrong and there is in fact a solution for my problem as I would lay down cash right freakin' now to sort this out.

    The solution to my problem is an ECU re-flash away, if only they would write a new program...TOYOTA ARE YOU LISTENING????

    If you have a six speed manual you've probably noticed that when you first get into it you suddenly drop about five skill levels in shifting gears? The reason for this is that the decelleration ramp time is way too long. This is the time the engine takes to return to idle from high RPM. I find that what works best upshifting is to take your foot fully off the gas, then push in the clutch, otherwise the engine RPM continues to rise as the clutch disengages. This is especially freaky when you are sliding under accelleration in the snow and take your foot off the gas expecting the truck to respond and it waits 1-2 worriesome seconds making your situation worse before actually slowing down. In that situation alot can happen in 1-2 seconds.

    I chased this down with Toyota Canada and they told me the same regurgitated B.S. the dealer told me. "...that characteristic of the fuel map is an emmission reduction feature and cannot be altered..." Really? What emmisions are we talking about? "It reduces oxides of nitogen (NOx)". Really?? NOx is produced in the combustion chamber when the combustion chamber gets too hot (heavy load, too lean etc) think towing a trailer or having your foot into it heavy. Please, someone correct me if I'm wrong but I see no need to reduce NOx when decellerating, as NOx shouldn't be an issue. The other OEM's don't have to do this, why would Toyota have to?

    I call B.S. This is what Toyota told sales and service to say if anyone complained about it. I would say that 90% of Tacoma production is Automatics, so out of the 10% remaining that are standards, maybe half of the people would actually notice the issue, of the remaining 5% that notice, maybe half of those could actually pin down what it is that's the problem. Of the remaining 2.5%, maybe half again of those like me might actually take the time and effort to complain and ask for a solution. For that remaining 1.25% (of production): here is the bit of B.S. we will tell them...emissions.

    I think that they used the same ECU program as the automatics have and I can see the benefit of this Map for an automatic, and they just turned off the part that identifies the presence of the AT. Why spend the money to write another program?

    The sales guy I bought mine from was sympathetic but told me that the brand new ones are still the same way. I contacted someone called Gadget at URD USA: "there is nothing that can be done to affect that horrible throttle logic that Toyota uses. I can tell you that the Automatic trucks are like BUTTER and glass smooth. The manuals just plain suck. I wish I had a better answer for you."

    Another thing I noticed that I haven't seen anyone comment on specificly is when decellerating, say up to a traffic light, the fuel injectors are presumably running at or nearly at no fuel to provide hold back. When the engine is close to stalling one would also presume the ECU would turn the fuel back on to keep the engine from stalling, right around the point where the torque converter is slipping lots or where one would push the clutch in. I haven't quite figured out when this happens (maybe when its still warming up?) It doesn't happen all the time, but I think the fuel is being turned back on at too high an RPM because when this happens, just as I'm about to push the clutch in, the friggin' fuel comes back on and the truck stops compression brakeing and starts coasting and feels like it shoots forward and I have to spike the brakes to keep from hitting the guy in front of me. Not uncontrolled accelleration, but it feels like the injectors should stay at no fuel for a second or two longer say the difference between 1000rpm and 800RPM. Again not smooth intuitive operation.

    The 2006 brochure says the Autos get 21/28MPG while the standards get 19/26 MPG. When I was younger didn't the standards always get better economy than Autos? Now Autos are much better designed fair enough but wouldn't you expect that the standards be at least as good since there is no slippage most of the time that the Auto is slipping? I think part of the problem is that same ECU Mapping...they have not optomised the fuel map for standard trucks.

    Well that's my rant. Thanks for reading it as Toyota doesn't seem to care about this issue. I'm hoping that there's a fix out there and I'd lay down good money for that fix to be sure. If you want the standard; this is what you're getting...if I had known I would have got the Automatic with a Big A$$ oil cooler and been happy, I thought I was being smart to get the standard.

    Now if only someone made a simple stick conversion kit for the existing Tacoma transfer case I'd buy that too. (I know about the FJ case). I lost my 4-low and still have 4-hi so I'm sure it's an actuator....uhg!

    thanks again
    SQVFR
     
  2. Mar 8, 2011 at 12:49 AM
    #2
    Manwithoutaplan

    Manwithoutaplan the full Monty

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    Do the 5 speed Manual have the same issue as the 6 speed.
     
  3. Mar 8, 2011 at 12:51 AM
    #3
    squamish VFR

    squamish VFR [OP] Well-Known Member

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    I don't actually know but I would presume so. If they do then that would support my opinion of the problem.
     
  4. Mar 8, 2011 at 12:58 AM
    #4
    Manwithoutaplan

    Manwithoutaplan the full Monty

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    yea it would support your opinion that toyota is to lazy to come up with new mapping.
     
  5. Mar 8, 2011 at 1:03 AM
    #5
    veekzNUTS

    veekzNUTS Member

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    I definitely feel your frustration with the 6 speed manual transmission. If I had known before that it was going to be this horrid then I would've probably gotten an auto. I don't know didly squat about the mechanics or technical aspects like you do, but it still bothers me. I would definitely like to see something done to help improve this and I would also pay for it. I was tempted to buy a short shifter, thinking it would help the driving/shifting feel. I thought about it long and hard and realized that the short shifter wouldn't really help the main problem you have afforementioned so I didn't buy a quick shifter. Is there anything that can be done to help remedy this problem other than your solution? Thank god my truck is mainly for off-road use *end rant*
     
  6. Mar 8, 2011 at 1:21 AM
    #6
    0BlackTaco6

    0BlackTaco6 Ive got tiger blood

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    i feel the same exact way about the 6 speed. Ive had to "re learn" how to drive a stick with this truck. Ive driven a manual truck before so I know that there is a difference between a manual car and a manual pick up. But this thing is just tricky as hell to drive sometimes. You really gotta think about it sometimes, accelerate.....off the gas completely.....press the clutch....shift.....slowly let out the clutch......slowly push the gas. I find myself cheering and clapping sometimes when I get a clean smooth shift. It seems to be a mixed bag around here with people that have the "issue" with the 6 speed so maybe we are just a select few of shmucks that cant drive. hahaha. Im definetly going to try the short shift kit from URD because I have heard it makes the 6 speed a little more enjoyable to drive. I wont go as far as saying I hate the truck because of the tranny, but if I had to do it all again I would definetly get the auto even though Ive driven manual in every vehicle Ive had except my tundra.
     
  7. Mar 8, 2011 at 1:25 AM
    #7
    BartStar

    BartStar Well-Known Member

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    I have no problem with my 6 speed, when I leave my foot off the accelerator the rpm's quiclky drop, the objective is to shift and clutch quickly to keep the rpm's up.
    I shift very fast and smooth, you won't feel it when I shift.
    The problem with most people on manuals is they try too hard, I have found you have to be part of the vehicle, make the vehicle part of your body and feeling to shift a manual.
    I got the manual cause when I took the auto for a test ride it constantly up and down shifted everytime I touched the accelerator, I told the salesman thats unacceptable!
    To my wants and needs the 6 speed manual is better than the auto, plus (as my test ride) the manual has better acceleration and more power than the auto
     
  8. Mar 8, 2011 at 1:33 AM
    #8
    Fox 21 Alpha

    Fox 21 Alpha Well-Known Member

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    I just picked up truck up today and drove it 450 miles back home. When I was testing driving the 6speeds at the dealer I thought it was just me not knowing the clutch, now I realize its the RPM hang. Does kinda suck, but I did alright at learning how to keep it smooth on the truck, definitely different from a car.

    Its not absolutely horrible, I wouldn't go buy an auto over it, but I did mostly just hours of 6th gear and cruise control, so we'll see how the first week goes.

    I didn't know it was a computer problem, I thought it was the way they built it all together it was meshed wrong and didn't drop fast. Perhaps a lighter weight flywheel? Seems to have plenty of inertia to spare so could probably drop a few pounds off of it and not lose to much power.

    But if its a ECU thing like you say, then you figure someone out there has gotta be able to flash it. Probably does require some work as it sounds like all the maps need altered for that upper range/clutch in scenario.
     
  9. Mar 8, 2011 at 2:13 AM
    #9
    0BlackTaco6

    0BlackTaco6 Ive got tiger blood

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    Well apparently that confirms my theory that me and OP are just the select few shmucks that cant drive.
     
  10. Mar 8, 2011 at 2:21 AM
    #10
    MountainEarth

    MountainEarth Well-Known Member

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    I feel for you guys. I really do. My previous 2 vehicles were an 81 Celica and 86 4Runner (both manual). When I came into a little money, I decided it was time to step into the 21st century. But I still wanted a manual. For some reason, I've always had a mistrust of automatics .. even though I honest to God only know 1 person who has ever had their tranny go out (2000 Ford Explorer with 130,000 miles).

    So I found a fantastic 2009 Access Cab 4L 6-speed, certified used with only 1500 miles on it. When I took it for a test drive, I found it to be fantastically smooth. It put my old girl .. my old 86 4Runner 4-cyl .. to shame.

    And then I got it home to where I live .. to the mountains. Snow and ice and steeps. And it was awful. This was no modern update to my old 4Runner. It was just a totally different beast. The thing bucked and jerked and wheel hopped, and the rear would break loose with just the slightest rollback when starting on snowy or gravelly steeps. I was burning the clutch all the time. 20 years of Toyota manuals, and this one drove me insane.

    A lot of that I chalked up to the fact that this is so much heavier of a vehicle than my 4Runner was, but as the same time so much lighter over the rear axle. I also chalked it up to the fact that the power from the V6 was huge compared to my old 4-cyl 22RE. So there was just so much more torque.

    I guess I was kind of used to mashing the accelerator a lot harder in 1st with the 4Runner to get the old beast going. Stalling and/or slipping were never a problem. There was a huge sweet spot. But with 1st on the 6-speed, I found it remarkably easy to either stall or break loose. Too little or too much gas. The sweet spot was a very narrow band to say the least.

    In the end, I ended up trading it in and buying an automatic. My mistake cost me a lot of money. And I'm still wary of automatics ... though the auto in the V6 Tacos is a beast.

    Yeah I've had guys tell me I'm a pussy, I'm not manly, that it was all the result of poor technique blah blah. Hey maybe. Some guys do well with it. A lot of young guys seem to do well with it. But there's something to be said about muscle memory. As in 20 years of muscle memory driving Toyota manuals. But as I said, this thing is just a totally different beast. Like no manual I had ever driven offroad. It was awesome as a street queen. It was my nightmare when slick and steep.
     
  11. Mar 8, 2011 at 2:31 AM
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    0BlackTaco6

    0BlackTaco6 Ive got tiger blood

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    Yeah I've had guys tell me I'm a pussy, I'm not manly, that it was all the result of poor technique blah blah. Hey maybe. Some guys do well with it. A lot of young guys seem to do well with it. But there's something to be said about muscle memory. As in 20 years of muscle memory driving Toyota manuals. But as I said, this thing is just a totally different beast. Like no manual I had ever driven offroad. It was awesome as a street queen. It was my nightmare when slick and steep.


    ^^^yup...well i cant say for 20 years as im only 25 but ive driven a manual in all my vehicles except for my truck before this one and have always shifted smooth and no complaints. i can say ive gotten a little better since ive got the truck in september but it still seems like more of a process to shift smoothly than it should. Even my dad who has been a mechanic for 30+ years has said it seems to be a tricky truck to drive smoothly.
     
  12. Mar 8, 2011 at 4:40 AM
    #12
    kb1jop

    kb1jop Well-Known Member

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    ^^^ What he said...X2
     
  13. Mar 8, 2011 at 4:48 AM
    #13
    CanadianGuy

    CanadianGuy Well-Known Member

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    ^^^ Agreed.

    I have 0 problem shifting my truck.
     
  14. Mar 8, 2011 at 5:13 AM
    #14
    TheTacoTruck

    TheTacoTruck Well-Known Member

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    this is the only manual that I have ever driven, I feel like I have done a good job of learning to drive it. But I have always hated downshifting into first at a light and all I get is the truck bucking. The rpm hang makes sense for the problem I've been having. I usually leave it in 2nd and just get it going again.

    But other than downshifting into first I would say that I don't have a problem with shifting, I would love to get a short shifter. I just wish that we got some better fuel economy than than the auto since we have an extra gear on their transmission!
     
  15. Mar 8, 2011 at 5:35 AM
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    P-Hill Tacoma

    P-Hill Tacoma Well-Known Member

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    Does Toyota ever listen to customer complaints? They just issue TSB and continue to make them the same. I know that other car companies when there is a problem, the first place they send the TSB is to the factory.
    Not Toyota. They just keep on making the same mistake for years. I think it is the Japanese superior attitude that they know better than the USA customer. If they change something their admitting they were wrong and we were right.
     
  16. Mar 8, 2011 at 5:37 AM
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    Mizike77

    Mizike77 Well-Known Member

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    I thought I was the only one!!! I hate the RPM hang on this truck...it drives me bonkers! I usually drive the truck 2nd-4th-6th and skip a bunch of gears (unless ofcourse the situation calls for first). And dont get me started on the slow clutch pedal on cold mornings...that is my number one complaint.
     
  17. Mar 8, 2011 at 5:40 AM
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    tacomarich

    tacomarich luvsoffroading

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    the dealer will re flash your ecu if you get the gas pedal shaved to take care of the floor mat recall. the re flash is only done if you get the pedal shaved.

    been thinking of getting mine done. people say the shifting is much smoother and there is not much of a lurk between gears. your gas pedal is shorter but who cares, as long as your ecu is functioning better.
     
  18. Mar 8, 2011 at 5:43 AM
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    MQQSE

    MQQSE Chief Pal Guy, GOB

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    Haven't experienced any problems with mine.

    Glad I went Old School with the 4cyl/5spd...luckily it's enough truck/power for my needs. Hope the situation works out for the OP.

    The older I get the more I believe in the Keep It Simple Stupid (KISS) principle. Seems like the more computer chips and electronic gadgets in the system, the higher the potential for problems.
     
  19. Mar 8, 2011 at 5:45 AM
    #19
    TacoCat

    TacoCat Look away, I'm hideous!

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    I have no problem shifting I just hate the RPM hang. Makes it sound like I don't know how to shift a manual.
     
  20. Mar 8, 2011 at 5:49 AM
    #20
    sicripp83

    sicripp83 Well-Known Member

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    iv had my 2011 for about a month now and the manual in this truck is deffinally different than my hardbody. but im learning to deal with it, smoother everyday. but if their a computer guys/gal out thier that can rewrite the ECU to fix the problem toyota iqnores im in. other than that i really dont like the wheel hop, and bucking. if anyone knows a solution to that problem im all ears.
     
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