SOLVED! Post 2853 Leaking Injectors, Dealer Techs Rock! Extended Cranking after Engine Swap 3.4L 5vz

not anymore

 

Crap. Wish I would have seen this before we took it to the mechanic yesterday. Would have been one more helpful piece of info. Thanks for the tip DP. Wonder if the mechanic would mind if we broke into their shop while they're closed and did this?

We heard from him as they were closing yesterday, and since we brought it to him midday, all he'd had a chance to do was look for codes. And guess what? He said there was a pending code for TPS! And while I'm not 100% sure what all their scan tool can pick up compared to Scan Gauge, I'm pretty sure this is a new code. Because I drove it just a mile or so to get gas Wednesday night, just to avoid letting it sit/not run for a full week, and the Scan Gauge said there were no codes, no pending codes, nothing at that time. The dealer had said they cleared the codes last Thursday when they replaced the TPS, then we were confused/worried the next day when the code was still stored in Scan Gauge. But I'm guessing after it was started enough times afterwards, the code the dealer said they cleared for TPS finally went away? And it's continued to idle rough the few times we've started/driven it since the TPS was replaced, so in that regard it wouldn't surprise me in the least if the pending TPS code this guy found yesterday was new.

And when the dealer called and told us the TPS needed to be replaced, I explained that we tested the TPS at home when the code first came up, and it tested fine per FSM, so shouldn't the wires/connectors for the TPS be tested before just replacing TPS? They said no, the TPS goes out a lot, and they "guaranteed replacing it would fix the problem, or we could bring it back." They also said there was no point in them testing the the old TPS, because it was probably intermittently failing.

So yesterday when our new guy told me about a pending code for TPS, I explained that it was just replaced at the dealer a week ago, so I couldn't imagine how the sensor itself was the problem. They are back in Monday morning - we asked him to please start with duplicating the hot start issue, then unplug the controller for the gauge to see for himself the difference in how it starts when truck is hot. He said he'd do that, then call us midday or so - then we can make decisions from there about what's next. Ultimately we want them to remove the gauge, but first I want him to experience the difference in how it starts when controller is plugged in vs. not first.

Something has got to be wired or grounded wrong it seems! There's a reason that TPS code keeps coming back. And there's a reason that the truck starts better when that controller is unplugged. And there's a reason our angel mechanic discovered holding the throttle open allowed it to start normally, and a reason that his noid light results on the injectors were goofy. It's gotta be some kind of wiring/grounding/voltage issue that ties this stuff together. And there's a reason we didn't have any of these issues before the engine swap and AFR gauge install.

 

SWEET! Thanks man! Ha ha Bama, I win, you lose!!

 

YOU BASTARD! LMFAO. SOOOO wrong of you to do that to me! Hahaha. But for a good reason. So while I don't own post 200 anymore, I had it! At least for a while!

 

Ha ha Bama, we gotcha!!!

 

The bad part is my Jason Aldean "1994" is no longer in post 1994! lol.

 

Aww, so sad!

Just called those super nice guys that did some tests on our starter last Friday, to pick their brains a bit about how since seeing them, we've discovered that the AFR gauge plays a part somehow. They explained that a properly working starter draws 125-200 amps, whereas one that's on the fritz/dead draws 400+, up to 1000 amps. I knew what he was talking about from reading that grounding article I posted a few days ago, and how after you read it you said the article was totally off in stating that a starter draws 800 amps, because if that was true the battery would start on fire or some crazy thing like that. Anyway - didn't really gain much insight on our issue from talking to him, although I did learn a bit more about what the heck the starter does and why we know for sure it's not the problem.

I'm still thinking its gotta be that the gauge isn't properly grounded - that it should have been grounded out to the battery. That was the first thing the mechanic that has it now said - he said he has one of these gauges on one of his own cars, and they should be grounded to the battery. Don't know whether just that alone could explain it all, but it makes sense that it might be at least part of what's wrong.

Husband did some research on getting a reoccurring TPS code, and came across some stuff that talked about vacuum leak - I think he said he read if the gasket between the head and the manifold is no good, and therefore allowing extra air in, so it would confuse things maybe? And then we're also still wondering if we've got an EVAP/vapor lock issue. The mechanic that has it now has a smoke machine, so pending what he finds and recommends after he looks into the AFR gauge wiring, I suppose we might let him do that smoke test. I don't completely understand the difference between a vac leak vs. an EVAP/vapor lock issue - anyone want to school me on those topics in a basic manner? Curious what the best way to check for each is. Pretty sure I've read that the smoke machine test is best for checking for EVAP - right? But what's the best way to check for vac leak? Would it be that same smoke test too?

OK, there's my speculating theory for the day. Now back to cleaning the shed and drinking some Hefeweizen!! Beautiful sunny summer day here today - so rare in Oregon this time of year! Got a nice walk at the park with the 4 legged kid, sat in the sunny backyard and did some Taco speculating, and now it's beer, sunshine, and shed cleaning time.

Happy Saturday everyone!

EDIT: found that spark plug thread I was thinking of the other day........http://www.tacomaworld.com/forum/technical-chat/30479-how-spark-plug-change-1-gr-fe.html
New mechanic thought it could be a sign of a lean condition that plug #2 looked so super white compared to the other 5, and he was thinking out loud about a possible vac leak. He thought it was pretty strange that 5 were NGK and 1 was Denso (the #2).

 

I have never seen a vacuum leak cause a TPS code. Not saying it is impossible, but it is not under the list of things that I see can cause the TPS code in question.

 

New mechanic is saying we need a new fuel pump. He knows the pump was just replaced a couple of weeks ago. His theory is that we bought a bad pump that was probably reboxed. He said his fuel pressure gauge shows PSI of 51, then when they pinch off the fuel return line, the pressure goes to 80. So he's saying this is the wrong pump for our truck, and it's putting too much pressure (spec is 38-44 per FSM) out, then the FPR and injectors can't handle it. I kept asking how it could be that we had the same issue before the pump was replaced as we do now with how it starts, but he just kept saying he knows his fuel pressure gauge is good, and he knows we need a different pump based on it putting out 51 PSI. Can't believe I'm actually considering replacing the fuel pump for the second time. Help.

The impression I had from our angel mechanic when he was replacing the pump was that it was losing pressure, I believe from that valve in it allowing it to drain back. Not completely sure, I don't think we ever talked specific PSI numbers. I know he tapped in by the fuel filter under the truck because that bolt was stripped under the hood where it's normally checked. But this mechanic is saying there's too much fuel coming into the rails from a pump putting too much PSI out, and he checked under the hood at the normal place, despite the stripped bolt. Hope that doesn't create a leak like the angel mechanic was concerned it might.

Please help.

 

I'm not buying that you need a new pump. The regulator is to bring the pressure down to the pressure you need. The pump is either good or bad. They run or don't run.

Did you by chance buy the extra volume pump that is used for supercharged trucks? AS far as I know, there is only pumps that put out more volume, but the same pressure.

I hope I'm wrong and am willing to be corrected.

 

I second that. There is nothing wrong with that fuel pump. 51 PSI is an acceptable pressure, and wouldn't cause your problem.

 

Thank you guys! Appreciate the feedback! It sure as hell didn't make any sense to me either, but seeing as how I don't know what to believe or who to trust at this point, it's great to hear both of your opinions! I actually called my old buddy Matt from Illinois and told him about it and he said it's a bunch of BS too. He's going to call there for me tomorrow morning and talk to the guy! We specifically asked them to duplicate the difference in how the truck starts when the AFR is plugged in vs. when it's not, then let us know afterwards what they noted. Then, assuming we didn't imagine that and they noted the difference too, we wanted them to then trace the wires on the gauge and most likely remove it, but ultimately look at how it may have been incorrectly wired. And they didn't duplicate the hot start, didn't trace the wires, didn't try starting with plugged in vs. not, but they are saying we owe them an hour's worth of diagnostics they performed that we did not ask them to do. I am so beyond done. This just will not end.

 

K, I don't think we did. Anything is possible, but we got the part number from the dealer, then found a local store that could get it based on that part number. It came in a Denso box, and looked identical to the old pump. The mechanic was saying they can all look the same, but it's not the right pump, must have been reboxed or something. I don't know.

 

No one will listen to us. Except the angel mechanic and he's still in Florida. But the dealer we went to last week and the new guy now both just won't listen to anything we are trying to tell them or do what we are asking them to do. I understand that they are the mechanic and know a whole lot more than we do, and I understand that anything is possible, perhaps things that were previously tested were not tested correctly for whatever reason, or that parts replaced perhaps were replaced with faulty stuff, but at some point it seems like they should at least CONSIDER what's been done, what we are telling them, etc. This is just a non stop nightmare.

 

Sorry to hear.

I've been super busy for the last week or so. Can I ask what is the present issue?

Last I knew, you unplugged the AFR gauge and the truck ran normal. Is there more that I missed?

Give me the cliff notes in outline form. Keep it simple for this barely, room temperature, I.Q. guy.

KO

 

its time to move on from this new guy, he is looking to just randomly throw parts at it to make money rather then find the real problem.

just let it go and don't think about them again, its not worth trying to get someone like that to care about doing things right. he is a parts changer not a real mechanic

 

Hey K, thanks for checking back in.

Current issues are still the same hot start issue and also rough idle.

The Friday before last, we unplugged the controller on the AFR gauge and the truck started damn near normal 4x, then plugged back in and started like shit again. So we were on a mission to find someone to trace the wires of the gauge and determine how it was installed, then most likely remove it for us. We didn't (and don't) want to remove it ourselves for 2 reasons:

1) We know zero about wiring. If they did some wacky wiring job, like tied it into a sensor voltage line or something, no thanks, I'll leave that to the pros. And if they did wire it to the ECU? Professional to remove please!

2) If the primary (or even partial) cause of the starting issue is found to be that the AFR gauge was not installed properly, I want it documented by a professional.

Also, the TPS issue, which I assume is related to the rough idle - we'd gotten the TPS code 2x, then the dealer replaced the TPS, then Friday the new mechanic said a pending code for TPS came up. We told him it was just replaced with a dealer part 1 week ago. Yesterday he said they tested it and it tested fine repeatedly. He said they looked at the connector where it plugs in and it looked fine, but said there's no way to test it. His conclusion was that we must have an intermittent problem with our TPS. I asked him if they tested the wire from the TPS to the ECU and he said no, they'd have to get to the ECU to do that.

So now we are mechanic shopping AGAIN for someone who is willing to test the wire from the TPS to the ECU (even the dealer wouldn't do that), but most importantly who will identify exactly how the AFR gauge is wired (where is it grounded, where is it getting power, is it somehow affecting ECU) and tell us what they find. Then we'd probably have them remove it regardless of how it's set up.

There's a place that is not convenient that does race car stuff that I've thought of taking it. They deal with this particular gauge a lot, and I talked to the guy for a long time on the phone about why we think the gauge may be set up wrong - he was super nice and said he has that same gauge in his race car. The downside with them is they primarily deal with Subaru race cars, not stock Taco DD's. But he sounded like they know wiring/electrical stuff, and at some point that gauge only has so many ways it should be wired, regardless of the vehicle. I don't know. He said if there is an additional electrical/wiring issue, they can diagnose/repair that as well as remove the gauge. Looks like at least 2 of their 5-6 techs are ASE certified....

The one consistent reaction from the 5+ racing type places I've called to discuss the gauge is, "why the heck do you have one in a stock Taco DD???????????"

Because of the trust relationship, my favorite option is for our angel mechanic to deal with when he gets back. I just don't know how soon that might be, and I couldn't handle the unknown period of waiting anymore. But who knows, maybe it'll wind up being him after all, if we just keep cycling through more mechanics who won't do what we are asking them to in the meantime. I understand why folks think it's strange that the gauge's wiring could be causing this issue. But for a mechanic to just totally rule it out and not even be willing to consider looking into it or attempt to experience what we did with the difference in how it starts when gauge is unplugged? Especially when we were very clear up front that this was what we believed and therefore what we wanted them to do, and to be told initially, Yes, no problem, we can do that for you, sounds possible to us, etc. Then somewhere after that it changes to, we are doing a standard diagnostic approach, with zero regard for your requests about seeing how the gauge is wired. So frustrating.

EDIT: So because we are not sure what's up with the rough idle and with how the gauge is wired, we don't feel good about driving it, at least not any distance more than a mile or two. If we went to that racing place, we'd probably have it towed because they are nearly 20 miles from home.

 

jen I think you are looking for and asking for the wrong thing to be done here and it may cause you more unnecessary delays in ending this and frustration.

just find someone who will remove the gage and repair any wiring that needs it and that's it, period. this wont be as hard a thing as trying to find and pay someone dependable to figure out "why" its not working.

its simple, stay focused on the end game here, it doesn't work, get it removed and forget about trying to solve the puzzle. your getting distracted by this thing trying to figure out "why" its causing problems when even an average mechanic will do a good job of removing it in just a few hours and you finished with all this today.

im not saying go to jiffy lube to have it done but the dealership is a great option to remove it because anything they do is warranted so they will remove it properly regardless of the experience you last had there. they dont remember you from the last time or even care anymore at this point. its a simple work order to remove malfunctioning gage and wiring included and do any needed repairs to the connections.

when its done and your trucks works trouble free again, then you can mail it to "k" or bama and let them test it for you if you just "have to know" if it was hooked up wrong or it is defective

 

I would swap in another harness....

 

I see your point. But how would we know a different harness wasn't just as likely to develop problems than ours, unless we bought a brand new one from dealer for $1200? I think I remember my husband found a place in Texas that sells an aftermarket of our wiring harness for a few hundred, maybe we need to revisit that site and consider it.......