SOLVED! Post 2853 Leaking Injectors, Dealer Techs Rock! Extended Cranking after Engine Swap 3.4L 5vz

Why not take the hood completely off and drive it. You won't hurt anything if only for a couple days. At least, you can learn if the hood contributed to the issue. One more thing to eliminate.

Be aware, you won't have windshield solvent, in most states this is a requirement.

 

Wow, really? Can you seriously drive with your hood off? I've never heard of that! Sure would look strange. But if it really wouldn't hurt anything, we'd love to prove/disprove how the hood is related to this nonsense.

When we tried barely lifting the hood, just ~1" more than just popping it, then cranked immediately, still started like crap. But started almost perfect when that thing was lifted all the way right before Taco was cranked. So it seems like it's not that the hood is pinching something, or I'd assume lifting it just a bit that time would have produced a normal start. Which kinda only leaves heat as the thing that makes the hood part of the picture.

Can the heat soaked engine bay really cool down THAT fast, in just a second or two of the hood being fully raised?

 

Where does the intake pull air from on the 1st gen? Is it from the fender well like on 2nd gens? If it is pulling air from under the fender well, opening the hood probably wouldn't provide the engine with that much cooler intake air -- unless there is an intake leak somewhere.

 

it connects to the fender and uses a plastic duct to pull air from the bottom of the front fender

 

Seems like hood has to be up for ~5 -10 seconds minimum to make it start normally at 30 min mark. Yesterday it started great 2x when hood was up ~10-30 seconds each time, and today we tried 1x w/hood up just a moment, then again w/it up for ~5 seconds, but no dice.

We looked at where the air comes into the air filter box, behind the fender. It's tough to see all the way in there, we were thinking about trying to remove some stuff to see in there better. Wonder if something could be lodged in there and restricting air flow or something?

 

Might be easier to remove the rubber boot between the fender and air box. There are a lot of fasteners that hold the plastic wheel well to the inside of the fender. They always break when removing that liner. Major pain in the ass.

I don't think this experiment is going to gain you anything if the issue is heat related. The truck runs normal once running, so I'm sure it's getting plenty of fresh air.

For that matter, take out the air filter and see what happens. A few days won't hurt.

 

Thanks K. We might try your idea about taking out the air filter!

Well, that's it guys. Taco's mechanic days are over. Time for at home mechanics Jen & Eric to take over. Yikes! Next step (next weekend) - thinking about removing IAC/TB to clean & replace their gaskets (engine dudes said they didn't replace them, then changed their story later when they realized I was not happy with their work overall - so I'm guessing their 1st answer was the true one!).

Just dropped it off for the last time at our mechanic. He has a couple of things to button up on it for us, then we're hoping to get it back tonight or tomorrow and bring it home, where it will stay.

Tried donor charcoal canister, no change. Replaced ECT sensor and starter relay, no change. Wondering if you guys think it could take the truck/ECM a bit of driving to "recognize" these variables have changed?

And here's a theory/dumb question for your Monday morning:

From what I understand of "vapor lock," our symptoms have always fit best with this (only having issues when truck is hot, lifting hood helps the problem, therefore something is being abnormally heat soaked). I've read so much crap about fuel and vapor lock and heat soak in the last 4 months that I honestly don't remember how the ethanol content in fuel these days relates to vapor lock/heat soak, if at all. But vapor lock is something to do with the fuel in the lines boiling and separating abnormally, right? Then turning to vapors, right? We found a really convenient gas station near home that sells non ethanol fuel. So assuming ethanol content has something to do w/vapor lock, here's the question:

I realize the Taco should be able to handle fuel w/ethanol, but would getting a few tanks of non ethanol fuel help us rule in/rule out vapor lock? I know vapor lock tends to only occur on older, carb cars, so it's never seemed likely, or maybe even possible on the Taco. But don't our symptoms fit it perfectly?

Also, wouldn't a faulty FPR fit our symptoms perfectly? We were told FPR was replaced with a new one straight from Toyota by the engine dudes. Not even going to explain why I'd second guess that. But curious if there are simple tests we can do to prove it's function at home. I think Eric saw something in FSM about this, but would love to hear first hand from you guys.

And don't all of our symptoms STILL fit perfectly with a leaky injector? Trust me, the thought of going down the injector road AGAIN makes me want to vomit. But can't help but wonder if you guys think what we are experiencing still fits with leaky injector.

Last question - at one point, current mechanic mentioned noticing the occasional twitchy idle, and thought perhaps looking into that might lead to some answers on the starting problem. His thought was pulling the valves/cams (apologies, I know I'm not describing this accurately, but suspect you guys will know what I'm trying to say) to verify they were set properly in the first place and the timing on them is right. Do you guys think something off with those could cause/contribute to the starting problem? We are asking him for an estimate on having him do this, so I'd love to hear TW's thoughts on what we might find out/gain if we decided to go for it. (By the way, the pattern of rough idle I've noticed is it happens after a hard start, and maybe even ONLY happens after a hard start, but not positive on the last part. Seems to clear up after a few minutes or so).

Oops, one more - think there'd be any harm in adding a ground wire? Existing ones have been verified. But what about just adding another - any reason not to?

Wow, lots of questions this morning, hope you guys are up for some reading and ready to impart more of your wisdom on me......ready, set, GO!

Happy Monday TW!

P.S. We removed the AFR's O2 sensor and plugged the hole, and the wiring for it is still intact but disconnected by mechanic. So it has zero impact on truck now, but we can hook it back up fairly easily if we ever wanted to, so at least we've finally accomplished that!

PPS: Some interesting reads (for me, at least) on Wikipedia about vapor lock and also about a flooded engine - both sure sound possible in our case, to me at least:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flooded_engine

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vapor_lock

Although vapor lock sounds less likely now I think? If I read that right, using fuel w/ethanol will actually REDUCE the chances of vapor lock, not increase the chances - is that true?

EDIT: Oops, one more thing. In edit format, just for DP's viewing pleasure. If we had him do the thing w/the valves/cams, then would that expose one or both knock sensors? Those little bad boys are one of the few things on that truck that have NOT yet been tested (since I'm fairly certain the engine dudes didn't check 'em!). And the injectors would definitely be easy to see/get to w/the valve/cam thing, right?

 

Well, just brought it home from the mechanic for the last time. That's it. What a bummer guys. But nice too, to just have it back and try to accept the whole thing. It still just blows my mind when I think about how much $$$$ we gave those guys way back in January, and this is what we got in return. But dwelling on that isn't going to change it, just had to vent for a minute though. I swear, I might just take Bama up on his offer to look at it one of these days! It also still blows my mind that SOMETHING is causing it yet no one can find what it is. How can that be? It's crazy man. Just crazy. Surely someone can find it - looks like we may have to drive to Florida to find it!!

Don't worry Bama, just running my mouth - there won't be a crazy missing electrode lady popping up unannounced at your door! At least it's not in the plan at the moment.......

 

So, it's not the Coolant sensor; I wonder if it could be the air intake temp sensor. I know it's throwing parts at it but it seems to be another part that likes to fail. It's Beck Arnley brand and $30.00 online.

 

Thanks Steve. I do still wonder about our MAF/IAT sensor............

We have a different one than the one you posted I believe. We have MAF with IAT (intake air temp sensor) inside of it. And we suspected ours, then tried our donor. And because I am running out of things to check, and have seen a fair number of other threads where this was the cause of their hard starting when hot issue, I have actually wondered to myself if perhaps our MAF and our donor MAF could be faulty. Then I realized I might need to go to the loony bin if I allowed myself to start down that road of thought..........second guessing EVERY single thing we've tried........yeah, loony bin for sure! Seriously though, it really does seem possible that both were bad, right? Both had lots of miles on them. Whatdya think Koditten, seem possible to you? I just don't have many other ideas, ya know?

Called a mechanic I saw online and described the problem/history to him. He assured me he could diagnose it in one hour. For some reason, I didn't just believe him and drive right on over, imagine that?

Hell, let's talk about someone else's Taco problems for a change. This is an "anything goes" thread at this point, is it not? Let's fight about dielectic grease, c'mon guys! Cheer me up. I need Mod to post a Dukes of Hazzard video and tell me that's what my mechanic was doing last week in my Taco

 

put a big ass huge hood scoop on it so its like the hood is always open

http://www.ebay.com/itm/95-11-Toyot...oop-/150630986102?hash=item23124e7176&vxp=mtr

problem solved, sending repair bill in the mail to you now

but im not totally joking at this point, if keeping the heat out solves the problem then screw the continued effort at finding the true reason and just solve the problem and move on with your life.

 

Holy shit! I might actually consider this.........

It's so funny how far this journey has come. I remember early on, Eric told me about some superchip or something (you guys probably know what I'm talkin bout) that tricks the computer into thinking it's colder - something like that. He also told me about a thread he read on Jeeps with hard start when hot problems, where they did some kind of heat shield somewhere between the exhaust and injectors I think? Anyway - til now, I've been adamant that I won't:

A) Keep & drive the truck with the starting prob unresolved
B) Try a heat shield
C) Try a superchip thingy
D) If I'd heard about it back then, I'm sure a modified hood would have made this list

Today, I am now:

A) Totally doing this
B) Open to trying this
C) Still standing my ground on this one.....but.......
D) Now that Keakar told me about this, I am adding it to the list of things to consider

How's that for sticking to your principles?

 

I'm sorry to hear you still having issues..

I don't think that my new found uses for dielectric grease would be appropriate for a family forum like this one

 

Another option: there's a few threads floating around on this forum and maybe yotatech? about putting a control knob inline with your ECT sensor so you can adjust your fuel trim on the go and decide what temp it is. IIRC it was fairly cheap. People used it to tune their engines for more performance, but I'm sure it could be like a launch sequence of sorts for you.

 

Interesting! I've never heard about this! Thanks for the idea Might do some research on that....

 

Been thinking about this from afar, considering all the details. I am leaning toward a leaky injector. Occasional rough idle and hard starting when warm are key symptoms.

RockAuto sells remanufactured injectors for $35, and you get $10 back per injector if you return the core. Removing the spark plugs and looking for one that is more black than the others might tell you which one, if you didn't want to do all of them, but you may not be able to tell. For under $200, it is worth a shot. Don't forget new O-rings.

 

Thank you TenBeers. I know, even after all we've done w/the injectors, a leaky one (or more) still fits perfectly with our symptoms. And we've tried to pay attention to odors when long cranking, and definitely smell fuel when hood is up during long crank. Although, prior to having this problem, I never lifted my hood and smelled for fuel when I started the truck, so who knows if the odor now is normal or not! It would be so bizarre if that was it though, because the place that serviced them AFTER the engine guys said they had was extremely professional and are well known in our area for doing excellent work. But hey, anything is possible, right?

To us, the thing that doesn't fit about it being electrical is that has always started right up when hot IF it was just running within the last ~5 min. I understand it's possible to have electrical problems that only occur when heat is present. But the truck is still super hot if you shut it off right after a long crank, then restart it a minute or two later - yet it fires right up at that point. Which to us, makes it seem as though it's gotta be fuel or air related, not electrical. Like some fuel delivery issue or something - maybe excess fuel sitting in there for whatever reason (leaky injector sure fits here) that clears out once it finally starts and runs for a moment or so, then it's able to behave normally when restarted right after. And while raising the hood has always helped it start most normally, depressing the accelerator pedal also does help some too. Pushing that pedal and allowing more air in being helpful definitely fits with leaky injector. But then why raising the hood helps more than anything else if it's a leaky injector is beyond me.

What do you guys think?

 

Guys! I found a guy on another forum that used to be a master tech at a local dealer! I've been emailing with him about our specifics, and he is offering advice! Free advice from local former dealer tech = At least it's a glimmer of hope, right?

 

tell me more again about the erratic idle...could there be a vacuum leak?

Howard

 

Yeah, my thoughts, too, although it doesn't seem to have the rough idle all the time. My original guess was vacuum leak, and changing all the intake gaskets was suggested. But, since it isn't all the time, I am leaning toward a leaky injector, regardless of the reputable shop that did the injector service. Not sure what they actually did. Just a cleaning wouldn't fix a leaky injector, and just replacing O-rings wouldn't fix one that doesn't close all the way.