SOLVED! Post 2853 Leaking Injectors, Dealer Techs Rock! Extended Cranking after Engine Swap 3.4L 5vz

good ideas, but vacuum gage on that long vacuum line might tell us a bit about possible vacuum leaks. A leak down test will also show gross problems with valve timing or other top end issues...

I am going to wire in the lights on my new to me leer cap today, change a motorcycle tire for a buddy, oil change and chassis lube on the 68 dodge pickup, and finish detaling the bed area of the TACO AC with cap and make it look nice again

Howard

 

I have totally done that - like you, learned that the hard way.

Thank you for putting so much thought into this, we appreciate your efforts already!!

This is awesome. We will be there Mon at 8, and would be thrilled to stick around to experience the symptom together if you'd like, great idea!

Sounds great to us!

This all sounds good too! Thanks for putting so much thought into this!

We are planning to video some various starts today, experimenting with the hood timing factor, maybe gas cap, and if we have time, take her for a longish drive (within AAA 100 mile towing radius of course!). We're gonna record them so we can do our best to pinpoint crank time in various situations. If we have any videos/updates worth sharing, we'll post later today/tomorrow.

Thanks again for joining the thread Jay!

Happy Saturday TW!!

 

We've done quite a few starts today, and quite a bit of driving between them. Doing our best to record specifics about time intervals, hood up or down, etc, then plan to look at it all this evening and see what's worth posting to share with everyone. Hopefully we'll narrow down some kind of pattern of behavior to this evil mystery problem!! At least it's a beautiful day to be out driving around and tinkering with the truck

I gotta say though, I am very much looking forward to turning it over to an expert soon, as I am certainly NOT one and there's a nice feeling of relief when someone else steps in to puzzle over it!!

 

There have been a lot of great posts on this thread but this last one really tickled me.

 

Alrighty, some strange developments today. Some starts with hood up that were total garbage. Some decent starts with gas cap off. This problem continues to change it's mind on how it's going to behave - I think it enjoys messing with us. Will post a more "scientific" summary tomorrow!

Have an awesome Saturday night everyone! Margaritas and mexican food over here

 

Morning TW!

Today's plan is:

1) Take out donor charcoal canister and put ours back in

2) Keep starting it/driving it and noting what happens

3) Clean her up for her big day tomorrow

4) Post any worthwhile info/videos on TW later about what we observed this weekend

5) Try new whiskey (hey, we had to come up with an errand to run yesterday to get her nice and hot! it's all for the sake of the Taco )

Change with the Hood factor:

Our long term belief that having the hood up during an anticipated bad start allowed it to start normally is now falling apart. On at least 5-10 occasions over the past 3 months, keeping hood up during 30-60 min "heat soak" periods allowed it to start normally. Then a week or so ago, just raising it ~20-30 seconds before starting allowed it to start normally. So we've become increasingly convinced that the hood is a KEY part of it all. Until......

Yesterday we had 3 awful starts, each with the hood up the entire time. Unbelievable. Two of them were 1 hour after last driven, with hood up entire hour. Both were horrible excessive cranking!!! And on one of those two, we even put the hood down right before starting it at the hour mark, so we could spray super cold water all over the hood just before cranking. And still, just horrible crank time. Also did one at the good ol' 30 min mark, with hood up the whole time. Horrible.

Gas Cap:

Started it 2x with gas cap off for full 30 min since last running (including cap off during cranking), both with hood down the full 30 min. Both were fairly decent starts. Only difference between the two was that it was idled 30 min prior to one of them, as opposed to driven 30 min prior to the other - and we've noticed it seems to start worse if it was driven prior rather than just idled to get up to temp. And the idled one was a little more normal crank time than the one after driving it.

This will sound very strange, but the best we can describe these nearly normal starts is that it's like it "wants to go there and excessive crank" but then at the last minute, it decides not to and turns over. It's weird. Last night, we said that to the neighbors when they asked how the starts were going (told 'em on the last one, "it wanted to go there but didn't") and they were like, "we know EXACTLY what you mean!" Then we started discussing how it takes on different octaves and rhythm patterns, and I realized even now my poor neighbors are being driven insane by this problem...........

And on the flip side of that, just about all of our neighbors come running out ready to celebrate when they hear it fire right up once in a while, like, when's the party?!??!! Then we explain the details of the problem and why it's actually not a cause to celebrate when it starts OK cold, and they get that glazed over look and go back to mowing.......

 

Have you replaced the EGR VSV modulator?

 

I know that's a real part, but for some reason all I can think about is Marty the Martian from the Bugs Bunny 'toons.

 

We haven't. We've been told by several mechanics that we don't have an EGR valve, and we don't see one ourselves either. And we've tested (per FSM) everything we do have under the hood related to EVAP (at least that we know of) - Vapor Pressure Sensor, VSV for Vapor Pressure Sensor, VSV for EVAP, and charcoal canister. All were normal.

But I've wondered about the EGR stuff. Like, is it possible the engine they put in came off a year/model Toyota that DID have an EGR valve, and now it's confused? Or is that not really possible?

EDIT: Koditten, couldn't agree more - what's up with the wacky part names sometimes????? Or my fave are the parts that go by 1000 different names. Adds a special touch of excitement to talking about them.....

 

About to start it for the first time today. Purposely waited to let the first start of the day (normally a perfect one) today occur when temps got nice and warm, it's now ~75-80 degrees here! Such a treat in Oregon in the spring!

I gotta say, my best hunch at this point is somehow we have leaky injector(s). Not sure how that's even possible after all that's happened, but it's my guess at the moment......just seems to fit the symptoms best at this point. How cool would it be if we actually got to find out what it is soon??

 

It sure acts like it. I hope Jay figures it out in a hurry. You 2 are do for some true, good news.

Jeezus! that last sentence sound like a poem.

 

OK, here's a video of our 4 worst starts this weekend. The third is the worst.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ns5NtKx9fjo

First one is 60 min after last driven, was driven ~20 min (some highway), and hood was left up full 60 minutes. Ambient temp was upper 60s.

Second one is 120 min after last driven, was driven ~20 min (some highway), and hood was down the full 120 min. Ambient mid 70s.

Third was 60 min after last driven, was driven ~20 min (some highway), and hood was left up the full 60 min, then shut and sprayed with COLD water for ~5 min immediately before cranking. Ambient low 70s.

Fourth was ~30 min after last driven, was driven ~15 min (in town), hood down full 30 min, then gas cap removed just before cranking. Ambient 80.

Will post a video of a nice normal start, which would be a first of the day or within 5-10 minutes of being shut off.

 

And a video of the best starts.

https://youtu.be/IW7bUlTMpmQ

First was after sitting ~12 hours overnight, ambient about 50, hood down overnight. Always starts great 1st time of the day, it seems, regardless of ambient temp. First start in this video is 3 min 20 sec long, just scrolling through Scan Gauge stuff after it started. Go to 3:20 if you'd like to skip that........

All the rest (4 more I think) are within ~5 minutes of when it was last shut off. Starts great every time if it's restarted within 5 - 10 min it seems, regardless of anything else.

 

And one more video.......

https://youtu.be/2xjZMInmLnQ

This one is of two different starts.

First one in this video is a good one. It was after it had sat ~25 minutes with the hood up, after being driven for ~20 min, some highway miles, ambient ~65. So weird how the hood up works sometimes and now apparently doesn't other times.

Second one (starts at ~43 sec) is one of those weird not normal starts that we said it sounds like it wants to go there but kind of doesn't. It's weird. It was 30 min after being driven for ~10 min, and the gas cap was off for the 30 min. Ambient mid 60s.

 

I'm kinda wondering about the cold starts. Your truck starts quicker cold than my trucks. I've never had almost instant cold starts. Maybe I miss heard.

Anyone else notice this?

KO

 

You mean those 4 in the good starts video that were about 5-10 min after being shut off? The 1st start in that video was a "sat overnight, ~12 hours cold start". I feel like that one was pretty normal speed/crank time. But the ones after it, where if it's restarted within 5 -10 min of shutting off, those to me seem like they fire up abnormally fast.

 

Getting ready to head over soon!! Excited and hopeful!! And in need of more coffee!!

 

Still here,,hopeing for the best. Got the racecar back here a week ago,so been busy with that for the last few weeks at both shops. Going to go hurt some feelings once it is all together again.


11.8v or so is about the limit on a good cold battery. One of those starts was a overnight-before cranking- 12.1v which is bad for some folks,,but it jumped to 13.4? right after the one start. So the alternator is showing a good charge rate when it does that. About 12.4v is my personal limit before replacing,,because when it pulls start amps it goes well below that before it starts up USUALLY. It's cranking over fine it sounds,,just low on juice just a tad cold, as per the meter. I know the starter thing as been covered already, Just a observation. I heard Eric mention it reading 12v because it is a 12v battery. A new battery should be up around 13-14v sitting cold, even thought it is classified as a 12v battery.

The cold starts are still very good it seems. It sounds like it is gobbling a bit of residual fuel pressure, trying to hot start,,then it has to wait again for more.

At this point in time, I would probably try a stand-alone 15a push button switch to prime the pump and lines a couple times for a few seconds, then go about the regular starting sequence and see if that makes a difference,,but that's just me so take it for what it's worth. If it does work with the stand alone setup,,then that's great. If not, then disconnect it and continue on.

 

Hey Mod! Been a while, glad to see ya back! Have fun with that race car, sounds like a good time!

Thanks for the voltage thoughts. And you are right about the battery voltage, Eric was mistaken. The battery in there now (the same one that was in during the start videos) is a brand new one, and it's a 14volt I believe? Last mechanic hoped/thought a newer, high quality battery might fix/help the starting problem. So he replaced that and the starter. But that darn truck still excessive cranked pretty much immediately after those changes.

Just got back from dropping the Taco off. I have to keep pinching myself to make sure I'm not dreaming this awesome luck we've had in meeting Jason & Jay!! So nice!!! Everything went very smoothly dropping it off, except of course that stubborn princess only did a very mild excessive crank when we tried to duplicate it while we were all there together. Even though we waited the standard 30 min, with hood down, after driving a good 45 min to get there. Go figure, at least we weren't surprised!

Extremely hopeful guys. Don't want to put any additional pressure on Jay by blabbing about how excited/hopeful I am, but let me just say it's obvious we have a true professional with an awesome work ethic and just an all around humble, excellent attitude. This could be it guys. Fave part of meeting with them this morning: I pointed out a ~5" thick binder of our FSM in the cab, and Jay (our new mechanic) said, "oh, is that the summary of what's gone on with the truck?" I knew immediately our new mechanic could see the humor in this whole long disaster!!

And also knew that clearly he's aware of what's he's getting into here. And yet he's still eager to take it on.

Jason and Jay, cannot thank you enough for stepping into this long, sad story and utilizing all of your resources to help us with it!! You are some darn good people. Wishing you all the luck in the world on solving this mystery!! Thank you!!!

 

Now I'm going to guess knock sensor. It's great spending imaginary money.