SOLVED! Post 2853 Leaking Injectors, Dealer Techs Rock! Extended Cranking after Engine Swap 3.4L 5vz

That's not too much longer than normal. Keep paying attention to it.the ECU may still be learning the new engine. If it gets worse, have it checked out.

IM off to do some research.

 

That second bid sure sounded like it came off the showroom. Sounded great.

 

well that's so obvious, its easy to see the trouble from a mile away..... the cigarette lighter is missing and that's your problem.

seriously I did notice something though, I noticed your cold start idle is around 600-650 rpms if im seeing correctly and that seams a bit low.

I know my 4 banger is different but mine cold starts at 800-1000 rpm (1000-1200 in cold weather) and goes down to 650 only after its fully warmed up.

what does that mean? im not sure but I believe it adjusts through the water temp and has something to do with the EGR and IAC valve so those are things to think about. in the mean time I would raise your idle speed so cold starts are at 750 rpms or higher.

there is a screw on the throttle body that adjusts your fast idle and another one next to it that adjust your regular idle speeds. I think these need to be set higher. check your manual for correct idle speed but it wont hurt to have it set a little high

 

http://youtu.be/NLTxqBkVmA4

Scan Gauge results - from what we can tell, seems like sensors are fine. Anyone see anything funky in the results it found?

 

OK, a guy on Yotatech just watched video and said results are normal, same as his Taco's typical results. Now what? Clean throttle body? Replace idler air intake? I'm pretty certain this is not normal, even with a new engine. If it was normal, why would the hard starts only occur in certain circumstances? Doesn't make sense. Starts instantly/perfectly when REALLY cold overnight. Starts instantly/perfectly when REALLY hot - just turned off within last few minutes. But struggles pretty bad to start when warmish. Something's not right.

Keakar, thanks for your post about the idle speed. We looked it up and from what we're seeing, 650-750 rpm is considered normal per Haynes manual. And I forget exactly what the idle speed was in the Scan Gauge video, but I remember it was within that range, and we warmed Taco up before we did SC. Thanks though - will research the EGR valve, as others have said it could have something to do w/all this.

Wondering if idler air intake control needs to be replaced? Or clean throttle body next? hmmmmmm

 

I though he cleaned the throttle body for you ?????????????????

very odd not to do that for a new engine build? maybe he figured the bill was too high already.

if you want to do this there is nothing much to a throttle body, most of the crap is all from the EGR passage. it gets sooted up so bad its like tar in there so don't get it wet, scrape it out dry because as soon as you spray it with cleaner it turns into tar.

DO NOT follow those idiots on youtube who spray crap in there without removing it, all that does is turn the soot to gooey sludge and washing crap into your new engine.

remove it from the truck and then clean it and for the EGR passage use a gun cleaning tool with brass brush for pistol barrels to clean out the EGR passageway and scrape the throttle body with a wooden dowel to scrap the inside of the throttle body safely without scratching it. once you get it all off then use the spray cleaner to do a final cleanup on it.

I found getting EGR valve body and throttle body gaskets was not a stocked item and it was order only here so get your gaskets first before you start.

you have to pull the throttle body to clean the IAC so I don't see how the mechanic didn't see if the throttle body had issues worth needing cleaning so I doubt that's your problem.

at this point I would say take it back to the mechanic and tell him to keep it until its fixed, whatever it is its got something to do with something he did and weather he caused it or not he is responsible to fix it. that just comes with the territory of being a mechanic.

I know others say he isn't responsible if something elese goes wrong but until he can prove its NOT something he worked on then it is on him to solve this problem without charging you to do so. there really isn't anything he didn't work on so how can it possibly be anything he isn't responsible to get fixed or corrected. you paid big time for a working engine which isn't working right and he needs to get this thing working right. if you go start taking things apart he wont touch it after that I can assure you. no mechanic will be responsible to fix something you mess with after he works on it.

I know you don't want to hear it but its time it went back into the shop for a few more days until he verifies it no longer is acting up.

 

I honestly don't know if he did or not. Thanks Keakar, will check it out!

 

just be careful, if you start tinkering with things then you wont be able to go back to him to get anything fixed. your warranty from him is void as soon as you start tinkering with stuff other then maint items. it works that way with any mechanic or shop.

it may just be that AIC he cleaned is needing to be replaced (it worked good for a while after that didn't it?) but I think your best bet is to let him work on things like that until your engine warranty is done with him. you don't want to do anything to risk that so maybe you need to have a conversation with him about what will or wont effect that so you know what things its ok for you to do and what you need him to do. priority one for you is not to void the engine warranty he gave you.

 

Sounds similar to my issue. Check out my thread.

http://www.tacomaworld.com/forum/1st-gen-tacomas/313833-heat-soak-problem.html

More than likely fuel related. I haven't read through this whole thread so I don't know what has been replaced and what hasn't but my problem was fixed after I installed a new fuel pressure regulator and fuel pump. And I know this has been mentioned but remove the throttle body and clean thoroughly. Then remove the IAC valve and clean it thoroughly/verify it operates using a 12V source. Then re install IAC valve with a new gasket and the throttle body with a new gasket as well.

 

Good point Keakar, I was thinking about that and you're right, I should chat w/him before doing anything really involved - the warranty is a key part of this! Plus, it'd be helpful to double check what has/hasn't been done already (throttle body cleaned, etc) rather than aimlessly poking around in there!!

Thanks Kigmob, I was actually stalking your thread the other day and noticed Bama was giving you some good advice on there. Congrats on getting yours figured out!! We did replace FPR, fuel filter, 2 failing injectors (others were cleaned/tested/reinstalled), but haven't done the pump. I'm suspicious about it being the possible culprit, even though mechanic assured us pressures tested good. Tempting to just have them replace it anyway.

Also, did you ever see the thread about the dude that chased the same issue for a while, then finally found the wire from his fuel pump that goes ~12" inside the fuel tank was all charred/corroded?!?! It was kind of crazy to imagine that. His story definitely made me wonder about that on our Taco! http://forum.ih8mud.com/threads/fuel...please.102573/ Same guy/same prob, different forum: Today's plan is to call mechanic to talk about whether HE or WE should try things like cleaning throttle body, etc, if not already done, and get the tires switched at Schwab. We put our studded bighorns on the second it was legal, I think Nov 1, cuz tread is getting lowish on BFGs, so wanted to make 'em last - Bighorns have lotsa life left in them. But now, trying to listen for wheel bearing, and any other potential noises is a real challenge when all you hear is studs! Figure while I'm there, have Schwab give their opinion on wheel bearing, boot seep, brakes - free estimate, so why not? I have heard a scraping noise, very mild/quiet and for just a moment or so then goes away, definitely on drivers side but hard to say whether front or back - only when moving forward (not stopped) - and husband said wheel bearing would not sound like scraping. Husband is thinking the "wheel bearing" noise could actually be some fine dirt in drum brakes - we've had that happen before, and a little blast of air w/compressor and voila, back on the road - cross fingers for us on that one!!

 

Did you have the mechanic check the pressure when it had the rough start? This is when the pressure should be checked. I as trying to check mine myself during a rough start but could not re-enact the rough start for the period of time the gauge was connected. From what I hear a fuel pump can die slowly. It's not one of those things that just goes out one day. Just some things to consider. Goodluck!

 

Not sure if he checked it during a rough start - thanks for the tip, will ask him that when I call today! Did you buy a fuel pressure gauge? Was it pricey? What kind did you get? Easy to use?

Now I'm really back to chasing a fuel issue - I'm noticing the AFR gauge differences each time we start it. Just started now, and it's cold out and sat overnight. Started right up, but what's different is the AFR gauge read ~12 for a while when initially started, which means rich. It always reads ~7.4 when we turn to accessory to wait for blinking light to go solid, then usually it jumps up to somewhere between 19-21 (super lean) once light goes solid, then settles where it's supposed to (~14.7) a moment or so after it's started. This morning, it went to 21, then down to about ~12 for a bit after starting, and stayed there a bit before slowly going up to ~14.7. Not sure if this even means anything, but strange that the thing isn't consistent in two of the same scenarios (cold starts after sitting overnight). Hmmm.

Also, as far as the idler air control valve, a guy on Yotatech said it's really strange that CEL wasn't tripped if that thing was stuck/not working. Does that seem weird to you guys? Husband said he read sometimes it would trip it, sometimes not.

 

Those AFRs sound completely normal. The wideband unit will take some time to warm up in order to display an accurate AFR. This is more than likely what its doing when it sits at 7.4 with key turned only to accessory. When it does begin to read and goes super lean, this is normal as well. Without the engine running there is no gas fumes or anything in the exhaust, its basically just air sitting in the exhaust system since the vehicle isn't producing exhaust fumes (therefore the wideband will sense a very lean condition). Now once the engine is started it should go rich (especially on a cold start). The ECU is supposed to richen the mixture on a cold start until the engine begins warming up. My AFR is always rich on a morning start (12.5-13).

 

What kigmob said.

So the rest is still a guessing game?
When you talk to your guy ask him specifically how the fuel pressure was checked and what degree of OBD2 diagnostics have been done. Fuel pressure test requires a gauge to be plumbed into the fuel system. It's not like checking tire pressure. The recommended spot on the 3.4 requires removing the upper timing cover (big black plastic thing beneath the upper radiator hose) and installing an adapter then the gauge. Because of this many people including "techs" will go on hunches and principals they "think" they understand.

EGR valve? I don't think you have one. They are listed for "some" 96 v6 models and no 99s. I only have 96 and 99-up FSMs.
If you have one it will look like this, at the top rear of the engine.


Idle speed? Idle speed is controlled by the ECM via the IAC valve. Essentially a controllable air leak into the intake, bypassing the (closed) throttle plate into the intake manifold and additionally a series of small passages leading to the injectors. The throttle plate should be closed and the adjustment not tampered with unless it doesn't close or sticks closed (not due to crud).
Generally a code will not be set unless there is an electrical problem with the valve as opposed to a sticking or binding issue (dirty).

 

Thanks guys.

Kigmob, good to know those are normal values. Do you have the same AFR gauge as we do (Innovate)? Did you buy a fuel pressure gauge back when you were having issues, and if so, how much was it? Was it a real pain to hook up? From DP's description, sounds fairly involved...

Dirty Pool, thanks for the info. I remember mechanic mentioning something about having to get his fuel pressure gauge out of there when we were picking up - implying it was a somewhat involved thing. But absolutely, it would be good to confirm exactly how in depth he got w/that. And kigmob advised having it checked during a rough start, which seems like it's worth asking mechanic about too.

Good to know it's not a cause for concern about no CEL in spite of IAC valve being stuck - thanks for clarifying that. Also, thanks for diagram - will go pop hood and take a look for an EGR valve!

2 new things that may or may not be relevant to hard starts thing - husband thinks he heard a clicking sound coming from charcoal canister last night after Taco was warmed up. Also, he and I each noticed on separate occasions that the engine loped ever so mildly while parked and idling - once last night, and once this morning. What is normal idle speed when stopped and in gear vs. when in park? Is normal idle speed affected by anything besides those factors? Haynes said normal on 3.4L is 650-750 - and I noticed today (w/Scan Gauge II plugged in) that Taco's idle speed drops down as low as 590ish when I put in gear, but lowest it ever was in park was ~630 - does that all sound normal? Now that I think about it, yesterday afternoon I was afraid it might die while idling at a red light - didn't have SG hooked up, so not sure exactly, but I remember thinking, crap, turn green already!! Glad to have SG to help pinpoint stuff like this now.

Went to Schwab - sure enough, hard start when leaving, after sitting ~30 min. Instant start after got home, shut off, and restarted 5 min later. Keep waiting to find out it's all in my head, but it's not. Tires are switched, brakes looked good, but unfortunately the Schwab guy did feel a fair amount of play in driver's tire, and heard a weird click when wiggling it. So much for the dust in the rear drum theory. Got to look underneath Taco while they worked, and see w/my own 2 eyes that frame looks beautiful - hurray! Also saw the boot seep issue - there's definitely a leak there, the bottom of that boot was pretty wet. Ah well, at least I didn't find out anything worse than what was expected. And no more studs = easier to hear every little noise. Pretty sure Schwab dude thinks I'm nutty - all other customers drank coffee inside, but I kept circling around Taco in fascination, finally getting to look closely at all these things I've stared at on computer screens and in books so much lately!

Thanks for hanging in there with us everyone. I realize this thread is crazy long w/a long winded OP (sorry!), but I pray we are close to the end of the engine related stuff and really appreciate all the folks that are hanging in there with us to the final final final end (had a few false alarms so far!)!!!

PS, one other (likely dumb) question - is it normal to have a little wetness below tailpipe? Noticed that this morning when I went to smell exhaust and see if that offered any clues - smelled like normal exhaust (I think! never really smelled it before!) but did notice some wetness on ground below end of pipe....

 

Lovemytaco....keep that SG plugged in at all times so you can always have the ability to watch what's going on. Also if you throw a CEL the SG will freeze all the different guages info right then so youll know what was going on when the CEL tripped. Especially since you've been fighting these issues. I've been reading this thread since day one! Glad to see you've got this far! Good work!!! End is in sight now!

 

yes.
an internal combustion engine is a very inefficient water making machine
It combines hydrogen and oxygen.

 

Thanks man! Clears one question up for me!

 

Sounds like he at least had a gauge on it. It's not all that involved to hook up, maybe 10-15 mins.
I have looked everywhere and can not find any spec for idle speed "in gear". FSM does say 700+50 idle speed in N for man and auto trans (in numerous places). I have never so much as touched an auto trans Taco but I always assumed that the IAC/ECM would compensate the idle RPM for the drag of the auto in gear. So I can't say for sure on that one. On the other hand there could still be an issue with the valve itself. The actual valve mechanism must rotate absolutely smooth and be free from crusty caked on crud. The electric portion of the valve or "rotary solenoid" is very delicate. Impossible to make a judgement on that without it in my hand. Also on the throttle body is the "throttle position sensor" that might warrant investigation but problems there are usually constant.

As far as the tire shop finding "play and a click" at the driver side front tire. That's textbook symptoms for a bad rack guide. Lots of shops will (with out actually checking) say "Oh, you got a bad inner tie rod". Symptoms are similar. Go back to post# 377 for that stuff. Nothing is going to fall apart or cause a catastrophic steering failure with these issues.

 

Thanks for searching DP! Appreciate the help! Like your outlook on the tire dude's analysis too.

Here's an easy question - where is the fuel pump on our Taco? Been reading Wikipedia page on fuel pumps, and Haynes manual - learning they can be inside tank, or close to engine, (or near but outside tank?), and mechanical or electric. Ours is electric, right? Hence, dude who's fuel pump wire (that goes inside tank) getting charred?

Never did ask mechanic what he'd charge us to replace it, but just called 2 Toyota dealers to price (funny, 1 said $408 and didn't know brand, other said $380 and Denso). Brand was what I REALLY wanted to know, cuz then I found on Rock Auto/Amazon for $80!! Crazy. But I think we'd have mechanic do it - kinda feel like anything semi involved and remotely engine/fuel/emissions related should stay w/him doing all. Those prices give me a ballpark of what to expect when I ask for a quote though, at least on the part itself.

Have found sooooo many forums of people having very similar issue w/their 5vzfe as we're having, w/the hard warm starts, and going through same laundry list of possible items we're considering. And many (including kigmob) think pump replacement solved/helped issue. Plus DP & Bama both said good PM idea. Hmmm. More $, but would be nice to check another possible culprit off, plus feel good about a PM thing......