SOLVED! Post 2853 Leaking Injectors, Dealer Techs Rock! Extended Cranking after Engine Swap 3.4L 5vz

Your call but, the injectors are out, I say clean/test em. Maybe start it before going back to the sensors?

Dinner time

 

Yes! This! Thanks man!

Although I think our mechanic might have been planning to take another look at MAF today after I brought it up. Ah well, I'm not going to call him and ask him not to do that now, after asking him to do it just a few hours ago....we'll see.......

Is it 5pm yet? It is in some of your time zones, right? That counts, doesn't it?

EDIT: Looking up in our very own FSM for our exact truck year/make/model about the proper way to clean our MAF & IAT sensors now.......

EDIT #2: Oh good grief. 5 trillion sections. Anyone know what section it would be under?

EDIT #3: Found this for troubleshooting the MAF, but don't really know how it might/might not apply to our situation:

The mass air flow meter uses a platinum hot wire. The hot wire air flow meter consists of a platinum hot wire,
thermistor and a control circuit installed in a plastic housing. The hot wire air flow meter works on the principle
that the hot wire and thermistor located in the intake air bypass of the housing detect any changes in the
intake air temperature.
The hot wire is maintained at the set temperature by controlling the current flow through the hot wire. This
current flow is ten measured as the output voltage of the mass air flow meter.
The circuit is constructed so that the platinum hot wire and thermistor provide a bridge circuit, with the power
transistor controlled so that the potential of A and B remains equal to maintain the set temperature.

EDIT #4: Also, Koditten, does your 98 have an EGR valve? Or an EGR gas temp sensor? The diagram in our FSM shows that we have at least the sensor, and a VSV for EGR (whatever the hell that is) - do you have those on your 98? I know the engine mechanic and some folks on here said we don't have an EGR....

EDIT #5: Anyone have an opinion as to whether we can absolutely most definitely rule out any sort of of EVAP/charcoal canister issue at this point? I've read plenty of stuff throughout this whole process that seemed to me like it could be something with EVAP issue. Not sure if it's worth asking our mechanic about that or not.....honestly can't even remember if we've already discussed that or not either!

I realize this may all be irrelevant if an injector is found to be faulty, but honestly I'm starting to think that's not it....just the way the mechanic sounded today, with saying he wouldn't charge us if it's not that, and saying he wouldn't even know what to look at next if it's not, etc, plus DPs point about the specs for a leak from one of them. Plus it just seems too crappy to even believe, that they were all just cleaned/tested, and yet one is already f'ed up? Possible, yes, but likely? Good grief. Dealer time if it's not an injector? Our new guy assured me time and again today that he's not going to give up, he will get to the bottom of it. I'm grateful, but also anxious for it to be resolved, without going bankrupt too!

 

Hi, I thought I would join in the discussion. I don't normally, but this has been an entertaining thread. I spent the better part of two evenings reading most of the posts. Lovemytacolots, you do an excellent job of describing the issues. I'm sure this will work out for you, just hang in there.

Part of my interest is that I had a 99 Taco that had the same hot start problem, I think my workaround was if it wouldn't start, I would let it sit for a couple of minutes and try again. It never left me stranded so I left it at that. I am very interested in finding out the cause of the hot no start.

You are probably aware of this, but I see a number of comments on open/closed loop. The Scan Gauge has a setting that will tell you if you are running in open/closed loop.

 

Hi there, thanks for the encouragement! We need it now more than ever, so it's much appreciated! Welcome to our very very very long thread!

Interesting that you had a similar problem! It's funny, that link I posted earlier today was a forum where LOTS of Taco owners (all models made in the late 90's) had the exact same problem, and the common theme seemed to be they were all high miles (150K +, most of them 200K+) and made in the late 90's.

We probably wouldn't even think twice about this issue, had we not just spent a fortune on a new engine that was needed because of fuel problems with the old one (or so we think that's what caused the piston hole!). But naturally, now we are paranoid big time about letting something like this go, and potentially destroying our expensive new engine. No way, not letting it go.

Yes, thanks for the point about SG II open/closed loop - we did always watch for that whenever we started it, and it would always eventually go to closed loop.

Correct me if I'm wrong guys - that means the ECU went around and read all the sensors and decided, yep, they're working, everything is on track. Then the "loop" closes. Right?

EDIT: Actually, that last part should be more like, in open loop when truck is first started, then all the sensors begin reporting info back to the ECU, and once they've all done this, then it goes to closed loop. Right?

EDIT #2: Also, I keep going back to the fact that we didn't have this issue before the engine change out and installation of the AFR gauge. SURELY those changes have something to do with this, right? Could that gauge be causing an issue somehow, like if it was incorrectly installed/wired, or could it somehow have messed with our O2 sensor?

EDIT #3: Kigmob posted this a while back: "My 97 has the tube like MAF and I just clean it by removing it and spraying MAF cleaner into the center piece (this is where the sensing element is located) then let it dry for 20-30 minutes."

Would that method get the IAT sensor clean as well? Just went back and reread DPs recent post about this: "many folks pull the thing, look at it and clean the apparent sensor. This ends up being just the IAT as the MAF portion is sort of hidden."

So what's the scoop?

 

OP, you may have already found it but info on the MAF should be in "5VZ-FE SFI section SF. You will only find electrical tests, Toyota does not approve of cleaning the MAF, just replacing. Countless folks clean them with good results all the time. I clean mine just as PM at every couple of air filter changes. Remember, just a blast from the can of cleaner. No touchy the element with anything.

Closed loop refers to the ECM entering a mode where it uses actual running air fuel ratio data feedback in it's calculations. It does this after things are all warmed up. During the warm up period it takes a simpler approach, kinda like we do when we wake up from a nights sleep.

Edit, this is what the 99 MAF looks like. Your housing may be different but the actual MAF element ant IAT "bulb" should be the same.


Time for Sons Of Liberty

 

Quit adding edits with questions. Pretty please.

 

you had to say it lol, now you jinxed yourself

cant recall but somewhere back where you found my posts talking about the injectors I think mod or bama said where he got some and they were always good quality.

sorry, been in all sort of directions (building 3 computers from scratch, doing brake job on camry, and trying to get organized to do a 4runner seat swap out for my 60/40 seat, plus some part time work) but I managed time to finally get back on the computer and popped in to see how you were doing and it looks like I called it right back there or jinxed you when I said to just buy a full set of injectors for the new engine even if you didn't think you needed them.

the engine guy sounds more dubious as things go so im beginning to wonder if you can trust he did what he said in having them cleaned and replaced some injectors.

EDIT - 8 to go

 

call them and tell them to not do anything with them.

its time to stop trying to make old crap work right.

just get that set bama gave you a link for and your done, DO NOT SPEND MORE MONEY ON INJECTORS THAT ARE STILL OLD WORN OUT CRAP, you already did that and look where you are now, just get new ones PERIOD.

I cant believe you are happily making the same mistake you already made the first time in not buying all new injectors for your new engine. worn out injectors are still worn out injectors no matter how well they are cleaned and leak tested, everything has a lifespan and they will never work like new ones will and it makes no sense not to buy new ones, STOP WASTING TIME AND MONEY ON THOSE OLD INJECTORS.

just my 2 1/2 cents


7 to go

 

EDIT: I have 994 new questions, that I will now post in EDIT format. Just for you DP, because I know how much you love it

Keakar, too late. Injector Doctor has them and will tell us results tomorrow. Trust me, I see your point, but I'm at the mercy of whatever my current mechanic advises. So here we are. Please don't yell at me, I really seriously can't take it right now. Yell at me when things are looking up if you wish, but not now.

DP, got it - no touchy. Will not touchy.

 

just talking loud, no yelling lol

and no I don't think you are stuck, a phone call can stop them and reduce the cost of wasted money. I hope he calls you after testing them and doesn't just start doing a full job on them.

whatever you pay (even full price) I still advise you to take them and throw them in the garage somewhere and buy a new set for your mechanic to install.

putting old worn injectors with 100k miles plus on them (even cleaned and tested so they still work ok) is like putting bald tires on a brand new truck. those bald tires will work ok on that new truck too but for how long? I know do you want to have to worry about burning another piston a year from now when one of those worn out injectors craps out.

so you made a mistake on the spur of the moment, we all have been there, but its important to not compound that mistake by using those old injectors just because you paid to have them reworked. its a minor mistake and not a huge expense considering everything that lead you up to this point.

you said that guy was redoing a sunken truck for his buddy so I bet that truck needs its injectors done too so ask him if he wants the ones you had done because you would rather have the peace of mind of having a set of brand new upgrade 4 hole injectors that will give you a better smoother running engine, don't consider it wasted money, think of it like giving him a tip for being such a good guy.

 

I think the sunken truck was a gen 2, would the injectors be the same?

 

I just can't recommend spending someone else's money unless I'm getting paid too. Let's let the guy who has his hands on the thing do that. If he makes a wrong diagnoses, he's the one that has to deal with Jens wrath. The worse she can do to us is put Anignore filter on our posts.

 

I'll have to check. The 98 motor is on the floor wrapped up for storage. I can't remember if it has an actual EGR valve.

 

I spent so little time on that engine. It ran for 300,000 miles with no troubles.

 

This post is because I wanted to be 1000.

 

yes, I agree, but an injector is a mechanical and electrical part that is in constant use and movement. something like that has a fixed lifespan before the electrical coil goes out, it also has a fixed lifespan before the seat and piston that opens and closes wears out. this means that while an injector is something that can be cleaned and serviced and reused, it is done so with the understanding its like cleaning and reusing old spark plugs. it can be done and is done very often but she has a brand new $6,000 engine that can be destroyed the same way her old one was and quite possibly by the same cause of a failing injector and THAT is why I am so adamant its not worth gambling on old worn out injectors for a brand new fresh engine.

that's all im saying, im not trying to imply its a bad idea to get injectors cleaned and serviced, just not in high mileage situations, the expected future injector failure rate is too high.

I just don't want to see her with another 500 pages of continuing injector issues

 

I actually hope they find an injector or several that are bad and I hope they can get new ones fairly quickly.

 

When the guy mentioned limp home mode, he was not entirely correct. His statement of "This "limp home mode" will allow the car to start no matter what, if all of the mechanical engine things are in check" is incorrect. There are still plenty of sensors and solenoids that if they are bad, the engine will not start. For example a bad camshaft sensor will prevent the injectors from firing at all, even if the system is in limp mode. No injector fire, no fuel. No fuel, engine no run. lol.

The part that I did put in bold "Pressure is all that needs to be monitored" from your post is what made me think that you were saying that flow was not important. Wasn't meaning to insult you or anything. I just went by your quote.

 

Does the first gen have an actual limp mode? I know second Gens do.

 

No. I did not make a mistake. I followed the advice of the one person who is actually here, in person, trying to help us. If you want to have your moment of glory on calling the injectors, better wait til we even find out whether that's it.

By the way, if you'd actually read my previous posts, you'd know that we tried to track down a set of your damn injectors, and they are not available. So please stop telling me to buy something that I can't. Thank you.