SOLVED! Post 2853 Leaking Injectors, Dealer Techs Rock! Extended Cranking after Engine Swap 3.4L 5vz

well I hope its just that simple little thing with the gear but ....

that simple thing most likely will require he drop the oil pan to access it if that is the problem so it could take a few more days to resolve

 

Oh good god Keakar. Say this isn't true, or at least that you're not certain about that.

With the 4wd, dropping the oil pan on our truck is a challenge to put it mildly. Haynes manual instructs that it's easier to remove the engine than it is to drop the pan.

Yes, Haynes is garbage or whatever, but more than one machine shop I called way back when this all started had told me the same. Remember, some people had told us to drop the oil pan to see if any metal shavings? Then others told us because of the 4wd (the differential I guess?) it's damn near impossible to do, and easier to pull the engine. I am NOT comfortable letting the engine guys anywhere near my truck again, and I am NOT paying someone else to remove the engine either.

Seriously ready to give up, but I don't even know how.

 

don't get excited yet, im just guessing here, but if its a crank sensor gear then I would think that's where the crank gear that drives it is as well.

wait for bama or someone to confirm or better yet wait until the mechanic says what the test shows

 

Crank and cam sensors are easily accessed with minimal labor.

 

Are you fucking kidding me! They used your original CS sensor?! This is just stupid.

now IM staring to get pissed. Prolly has the original timing belt, idlers and water pump as well. God I Hope I'm wrong.

 

sensors yes but the question was about the gear that drives it, where is it and how to replace it "assuming" it has issues

 

It's behind the crank pulley. Inspect it in 20 mins, R&R in 1 hour.

 

Thank you DP! This sounds like good news. Thanks Koditten & Keakar for your input too.

We just dropped off a new EFI relay at the mechanic's house. I know I asked him if that could be faulty on day 1 or 2 of the Taco being at his house, and he'd said if that was bad, the entire fuel system wouldn't work. But, since we'd already bought the stupid thing and it was only $8, we figured why not ask him to switch it and see if any difference. Because several of you had mentioned swapping that out, plus I did notice this in an article I was reading, once we'd heard about the injectors not getting pulse during hard warm starts:

"Most PCMs have an internal driver circuit for grounding (or in some cases energizing) the injectors. Problems here can disable one or more injectors depending on how the system is wired. In some cases, a shorted injector will kill the driver circuit in the PCM. And don't forget the power relay that supplies voltage to the injectors. If this relay dies, it will disable all of the injectors."

And he was definitely telling us on the phone this morning that ALL of the injectors were not receiving pulse during hard warm start time. And the testing by the recent injector place listed the OHMs as normal and the Voltage Drop as normal (or at least I assume, since it appears they checked that stuff first, then moved onto other testing, so if those were bad, seems they'd immediately be considered failing).

We also dropped off our camera and asked him to start taking photos of anything messed up he finds as he takes stuff apart and works, because every day it seems he discovers more stuff that was done sloppily, or not done at all, that should have been done correctly with the work performed by my absolute most favorite mechanics

And now? Now we are taking apart the passenger door on our Civic, because the power window will not go back up. Wait, that's a different forum.

I will lay down in traffic on a busy interstate before I lower myself to putting plastic over that window. It WILL be fixed before the end of the day.

Yep, things are going purty darn good over here.

 

well I suggest you make your engine guy a batch of brownies and mix in about 6 boxes of ex-lax in it when cooking.

seams fair after the way you can see you were treated

 

This sounds far too kind for the way I am feeling Keakar. I will now stop typing, because it would not be wise to say more on that topic on the internet.

 

Jen, why is it that the original engine crew is not troubleshooting this?????

 

The lack of "injector pulse" during the hot start period is a very solid piece of diagnostic data. Two questions come to mind, why and why it has not been seen until now.
A damaged trigger wheel, actually an extension of the lower timing belt pulley (front of engine), should cause issues all the time.

Back to that "start" or "STA" input to the ECM we talked about a while back. There is a code for a fault in that signal. It's an "enhanced" or "Toyota specific" code", PO1500. I'm not sure if 1st gen Tacos are evolved enough to detect and set the code. I have never heard it mentioned nor is it discussed in the FSM of our era TACO. The significance here is that your guy may have to manually check for the 6+ volts at the ECM like we talked about. He could be missing the issue, by relying on his reader. Of course one would think a fault there would affect all starts.

I have to say, it sure seems like "no injector pulse" during the hot start and why is about as good a lead as he's had yet.
FWIW there are specs for the crank sensor, both cold and hot.

 

We took it back to them 2x after the hard warm start issue was not resolved. The guy emailed me after the engine was in and told us about the issue (his exact email is in post #7 trillion or so). He said he'd test fuel pressure to determine whether it was the pump or the FPR. Then a few days later, he said his tests showed him it was the FPR, so he replaced it. Then he called us and said it was fixed. We took it home and immediately had the hard warm start issue that evening several times. Next day, it barely started. We took it back to him and SUPPOSEDLY he rechecked everything under the sun that could possibly cause the issue. He said our IAC (idler air control) valve was stuck either open or closed (they couldn't remember which, there's something new!) so they cleaned and reinstalled it and sent us on our way for the 2nd time.

Brought it home, and still the issue was there. Took it back, and I sat in their lobby for 3 hours and listened to them start it at ~5-10 minute intervals in the back, after I'd repeatedly told them the issue occurs at 30 min., and also the mechanic himself was the one that initially noticed the issue (right after the engine was in) and he himself described it as happening at ~30 min. They came out and told me they blew some dirt out of a line to the charcoal canister, and the looks on their faces made it clear that they did NOT think that could have been the cause of the issue. They told me they'd checked and rechecked our fuel pressure 1000 ways, it couldn't be the pump (I kept asking if it could be the pump cuz that was the consensus on here). They basically showed me the door. I sat in the parking lot for "coincidentally" about 30 min from when I'd last heard them start it. Naturally neither of the 2 senior mechanics who'd been primarily working on our truck bothered to come out with me when I was going to be starting it to leave. Sure enough, hard warm start. A junior mechanic looked up as if to say, "that didn't sound right!" Ran back inside, got the head dude, told him, and the junior mechanic explained what he'd heard too. The mechanic swapped our IAC valve with a used one, even though ours had been cleaned and tested, because he didn't have any other ideas and neither did I. Drove it home, and guess what? Hard warm starts continued. That was a Friday afternoon.

Called them Monday morning, and said we were thinking of selling the truck or going to the dealer, because we didn't know what to do about this issue. Asked him if he had any ideas. He said, "that sucks, that's so sad, I'll try to do some research" That was 2 weeks ago, have not heard from them since.

Decided to take our neighbor up on his offer to have his dad's friend look at it for a reduced cost, because he used to be a Toyota master mechanic, and works from home now for lower costs, right here in our little town just a few miles away. Felt we were getting the blow off from the engine dudes, so why keep doing a 60 mile round trip out there, just to keep being told, "I don't have any ideas, we've checked everything a thousand times, take it home and see if us doing ABSOLUTELY NOTHING TO FIX IT has now magically fixed it"

And now? I do NOT want them anywhere near my truck again. Yes, I realize that would be the appropriate thing to do in most situations, but with all the faulty work my new mechanic has found (the injectors, the leaks, the stripped bolt, the hoses, the fact that WE DIDN'T HAVE THIS ISSUE BEFORE those guys touched it), I cannot see how giving it back to them, so that they can put it on the bottom of their priority list and patronize us some more is a good idea.

 

Does your Civic have a switch to disable the pass window to keep children from fooling with it?

 

DP, thank you for hanging in there. I have to be honest, I was hoping and praying that this discovery might make a light bulb go off in your head. I can see the wheels turning all the way from over here in Oregon - keep telling me your thoughts.

Or give me some tasks of things to pull up in the FSM, that always helps keep me sane!

 

It does, but that's not it. Husband just stepped in for a minute from working on it, and he said, "I think I've got it figured out" - could it be, something is going right?

Thanks for the thought DP, keep 'em coming!

 

Also DP, I physically took the starter circuit paperwork from the FSM over to the mechanic - the stuff that you posted for me way back when. Initially, I think he kind of tossed it aside, thinking his Snap On tool had already ruled this out. But then next time we spoke, I think it was when the pump didn't work and he avoided calling us to tell us, he said he did check that (the starter circuit thing). Then next time we were there (and today too) we saw he had all the stuff taken off under the steering wheel where I'm pretty sure that circuit stuff is.

Not sure if what I've described means he definitely checked that in the way that you are advising, what do you think?

 

Sounds like he's got the start circuit thing covered.
I'll say it again, this lack of injectorizing is good, solid, problem causing data, the best yet. Why is the question now.

 

Thanks DP, I like what you are saying. He was going to check the cam and crank sensors today, and also the MAF. Hoping this leads us somewhere.

Just went out and checked on the hubby - window is fixed, hurray! Works better than it has in quite some time, and he got it done in less than an hour. I'm proud of his home mechanic skills when it comes to stuff like this, and I'm glad to now put jokes about laying down in traffic out of my mind.

 

One other thought - seems to me that the coil packs testing in excess of spec when IAT is hot enough to produce hard warm starts could be somehow related to the injectors not receiving pulse during hard warm starts. Have no clue how they might/might not be related, or what it could tell us either way, but hoping maybe it triggers a light bulb for someone in TW? I did bring up the coil pack thing to our mechanic this morning, and I forget exactly what he said, but it seemed like he thought they could be related. Or maybe that was my husband. Too much automotive crap in my head right now, sorry.