SOLVED! Post 2853 Leaking Injectors, Dealer Techs Rock! Extended Cranking after Engine Swap 3.4L 5vz

This whole deal is about the brown wire or "output #2".
If, how and to what it's connected are the questions. When that is determined only then can the blame game mean anything.

As far as the blame thing goes. If the gauge is wired in the optional capacity as a fuel management input, you should have been notified. For future service reference if nothing else. I was under the impression that the gauge install was just for you to monitor (stand alone). I'm thinking that's what tech #2 and the dealer tech thought as well. Anyone knowing that it was integrated into the OEM fuel management should have suspected it from the get go on day one.

 

Wait, DP, are you saying when an installer of this gauge choose the optional method of connecting it to the ECM, then the gauge actually manipulates your air/fuel ratio? As opposed to installing it NOT connected to ECM results in simply monitoring air/fuel ratio instead of manipulating it? Cuz yeah, all we wanted (which we made clear to the engine mechanic) was to monitor - NOT to manipulate. And yes, I'm sure that's what every other mechanic would assume too - that it was installed in a manner that results in monitoring only, not manipulating. Wow. This could explain a lot. If I understood you correctly as I asked in my above bolded question, then holy cow, that could explain A LOT. Cuz those spark plugs did not look to me like they should have looked for supposedly being new just a few weeks prior. And that's the part that scares me the most in this whole thing, like is there still some uncorrected issue causing a lean condition. Will hope like hell its the gauge being wired to the ECM that is creating any potential lean condition, cuz that's an easy fix.

Husband read the manual and from what he read, he's thinking it could be a symptom of bad grounding on the AFR or a bad power source for the AFR? Does that seem possible to you?

We'd LOVE to take things apart and see where those damn wires go now. The second we realized all this Friday night husband was dying to start taking things apart. But I feel like it should be removed by someone who can provide credentials and documentation of their findings as to whether it is indeed the sole cause of the issue(s) we've been having and hopefully also provide the WHY behind it all. Cuz I just don't know what might need to happen after that, pending how it all turns out. And the way the little "face display" of the gauge that shows the readings is installed, we'd have to remove that thing just to pull up the plastic covering the drinkholder area in the middle, and only then could we maybe finally see the path of the wires underneath that plastic piece. And that little face thing is bolted in place, and I'm sure it's got wires coming out of it.......you get the idea. Don't really wanna mess with anything ourselves, cuz that could create a he said/she said type situation afterwards, on something that may wind up having been the culprit behind lots and lots of wasted dollars/time/stress.

 

This, in bold, is exactly what I was talking about. If the ground or power is bad and effects the voltage going to anything else in the engine management system then I can really see the symptoms you had occuring.

If mechanic one decided to wire this gauge into your ECU he was doing way more work than he had to. Which doesn't sound like his style but, hey, you never know until someone follows the wires right? That being said if you had the electrical guys check out your harness at all they should of noticed a few wires that had been cut and tampered with to wire in that wideband sensor into your ECU.

That all being said I'm not even sure you can wire in a wideband sensor to communicate with your stock ECU without causing serious issues. I mean, why would someone ever want to wire in an aftermarket O2 wideband sensor unless they were using an aftermarket custom EMU and they were running a custom tune with boost, methanol, etc and wanted to manipulate those values. Your truck certainly was never going to see any of that and any mechanic, good or bad, should of known that too.

Lots of questions in there. Sorry, not trying to make your brain overwork but this is really REALLY weird. AFR gauges are used by almost everyone here with a TRD supercharger, and that's quite a few members, and I've never heard of a problem like this.

 

Good to know, thank you.

Exactly what we were thinking too. Which makes all of it even more confusing.

Those guys just checked the starter. They didn't really check anything as far as wiring/electrical/sensors beyond that. They were super nice and did what they did for free, so I'm certainly not complaining, but frankly they didn't do much. I was standing right there next to them the whole time, so I am confident of that.

That part above kinda confuses me. Just being honest

Agree 1000%, and that's what I keep saying too. Husband found a few things searching on the web about how this brand is crap, but I keep saying I know tons of people have them, just from all the research/forum time I've put in the last few months, so surely we'd have heard of some widespread problems developing for folks that have them if it was as simple as a crap brand or something. Agree, it is REALLY weird, and I am so eager to find out the WHY part behind it all.

 

Anyone know if there's specs on OHM testing the O2 sensor associated with the AFR gauge? I'm not finding anything in the crap we printed from the Innovate site, but maybe I missed it? Or ya think it'd be same specs as the OEM Toyota O2 sensors?

 

Try figuring out which O2 sensor you have. Innovate usually pairs there gauges with Bosch sensors. Bosch may have the specs you are looking for on there site.

 

Thank you, great idea!

 

http://www.bosch.com.au/car_parts/en/downloads/sensors_oxygenlsm11.pdf

I think this is the one that's on their for the AFR gauge, does it look like it to you guys? Husband's gonna review all the stuff on that sheet, but anyone see what spec OHMs would be for that little dude?

OK, here's a general question for all of you who are familiar with the engine swapping process:

Would the engine guys have needed to expose our ECM (remove glovebox and all that good stuff) for any reason when swapping the engine?

 

http://www.innovatemotorsports.com/support/manual/LC-1_Manual.pdf

That's the manual for the AFR gauge we have. The excerpt below is from page 6, and it mentions starter cranking/starter currents 2x (bolded):


2.3 Electrical Grounding Concerns

The electrical environment inside a car provides unique challenges, combining high voltages and currents, low-voltage signals, convoluted signal paths, and variable conditions (i.e., fans turning on and off, or starter cranking).

When using precision electronics, it is important for ALL electronics to share a common ground. Remember that “Ground” is more than just the return path for any circuit- it is also the reference against which any voltage is measured. Since it is not always practical to ground every device to the exact same location, here are some tips on grounding:

1. The BEST grounding scheme is all grounds (i.e., ECU, Gauges, LC1 heater, LC1 system, etc.) SOLDERED into a single lug and bolted to the engine block.

2. The next best is all grounds attached to the same source, as close as possible, but on separate lugs. This is because even the corrosion between lugs can create ground offset and noise. Incidentally, this is why many ECUs have separate ground wires for injectors vs. ECU system ground- separating high voltages and low voltages reduces noise.

3. Grounding to the engine block is usually better than grounding to the frame.

4. Grounding a gauge to the radio is usually bad- ground offset can vary with volume.

5. Grounding to an ECU housing is generally not optimal- housings are strapped to the frame for shielding, but not necessarily grounded.

6. One of the WORST things to do is to ground most of your electronics to one place (i.e. the engine block), but ground one device somewhere else (i.e., the frame). Not only can this result in ground offsets, it can also create a “path of least resistance” for high currents THROUGH a low-current device. This can result in melted wires and vaporized diodes, when, for example, starter currents flow through gauges.

WHOA. Just thought of something else. Remember how a couple times now I've mentioned smelling an odd smell, not quite fuel, not quite oil, not sure what the heck it was? Then this most recent time my husband smelled it too and he thought it smelled like burned rubber? I wonder if #6 on this list is what's going on.......melted wires and vaporized diodes.......

 

Anyone know the name of the gasket/seal/plug thingy we need to close up this hole?

There was some sort of gasket covering this hole, but they opened it up to run the AFR gauge wires through it. The gasket wasn't given to us.

So we're trying to figure out what we need to buy to seal it back up, because soon there won't even be wires going through that hole.......

EDIT: Husband just found part # for this, never mind, thank you!

 

Not at all!

 

http://www.innovatemotorsports.com/support/manual/DB_manual.pdf

This is a different very brief manual on our AFR gauge. We have the LC-1, and #5 in this file says for the LC-1, connect the brown wire to the white wire. Huh?

This paper is the one that was in the box they gave us for the gauge. The other document I posted earlier, the one that is much longer than this one, was something we printed from the manufacturer's website.

 

Sorry, I tried quoting you. What I meant was they do not need to get at the ECU to do an engine swap.

 

Ah. Thought you meant something totally different, and was just about to post a very smart ass reply

Good to know, thank you! (about the ECU/engine swap)

 

One more question.

I would assume most any reasonably good mechanic could review the manual for the AFR gauge and do a good job removing it. But I'm kind of thinking the best person to remove it might be someone who is very familiar with them, in hopes of finding out PRECISELY why it was causing this issue, plus maybe it would cost less in labor if they can do it faster than someone who doesn't install them very often. Do you guys think it would be best to go to a specialty place, like a mechanic that does performance mods type stuff, in hopes that they'd be much more familiar with installing and removing this specific type of equipment, instead of a general mechanic? For me, the majority of that manual may as well be in Japanese - but I'm guessing it's not nearly that confusing to read for someone who deals with automotive electrical stuff in general.........

 

Yes, this is what I have been trying to get across in the 2 posts below.
Don't feel bad, I took a course in "technical writing" and should have taken several more. It is very difficult to do well. Just look at the FSM.

I had thought that you could just take a quick look at the wire bundle that appears to be zip tied to the frame. See if this celebrated brown wire is connected to anything. If it is, then let the neighbor tech trace/evaluate/document what's going on.
That being said, I have been reviewing the detailed FSM "engine control" wiring diagrams in an effort to see where/how the brown wire could logically be tied into the ECM. Nothing jumps out at me. The sensor for your gauge is nothing more than a very sensitive O2 sensor (in simple terms). It would have to take the place of, or override the upstream OEM O2 sensor signal (using the brown wire). It just doesn't seem plausible that the OEM ECM could "listen to and understand this foreigner".
I have always thought these after market AFR kits, when used for fuel management, were intended to be wired into supplemental or piggyback ECM's designed for this type of input (the brown wire). These are typically used to effectively deal with the increased air/fuel delivery from supercharger or turbo installations, beyond the ability of the OEM ECM.
It is entirely likely that the engine guys goofed this up in any number of ways. It should be viewed as a malignant tumor requiring skilled and methodical removal or isolation (neighbor tech).

I know you are understandably gun shy about the gauge but properly set up as a stand alone unit, there is no way it could interfere with the operation of the engine.

I know it's going to be tough but I say let her sit till your guy gets back. Poke around and look see all you want. It is quite possible that you haven't gotten the engine into closed loop with the AFR gauge unplugged. I don't remember, it was a cloudless 70 degrees the other day. Anyhow, getting into closed loop with no sensor input could set codes that would just complicate the good neighbor doctors job. I don't see any physical damage happening other than to the Innovate sensor, but I still say let her sit just the same.

The series finale to this soap opera may well be titled "The Brown Wire", of course with the appropriate organ chords.

One more thing. It looks like the "LC-1" has been replaced by the "LC-2". Could be why there appears to be a lot of sales on the LC-1, don't know, just a thought.

 

Yes, this seems to contradict page 4 of the long version, by a long shot.
I'll be reviewing it.

 

I would not put another cook in the kitchen, at least till your neighbor gets back.

 

Thanks DP. We've been doing exactly that all day - we go out there and contort ourselves into impossible positions to try to get a good angle on snapping some photos of the wiring behind the radio, behind the glovebox, etc. And all we see when we upload the pics is a bunch of wire bundles, and go, hmmm.........what does that mean/where does that go?

Although we did just read your post and snap some pics of some wires under the truck associated with the AFR gauge. They were the wires behind husband's fingers in the first attached photo - there was lime green, black, red, white, and grey, as sort of shown in the 2nd pic (pic quality sucks, sorry). But those wires go to the AFR gauge's O2 sensor and end there. The wires coming off of the other side of the AFR gauge's "computer" (the right side of the first pic) are not visible unless we destroy stuff, which we aren't doing. Even though husband would really really really like to, I keep saying NO. I'm no fun, huh?

I want to just wait for our angel mechanic to return, tell him what we've discovered, and let him have the satisfaction of undoing that mess, while saving us some $ compared to having someone else do it. I have zero doubts that he would be super thorough in ensuring that all was restored to proper working order, as well as go the extra mile in answering our 5 billion questions after the fact about the HOW and the WHY parts. My only concern is that he works out of his home. He is ASE certified, but not sure what all is required in the eyes of Visa/small claims court in terms of credentials and so forth, should it (gulp, I hope not) get to that point. Which is the only reason I'm considering going to an automotive electrical place, or a performance race car mods type place, who might be really familiar with these gauges, which could also offer a side benefit of them possibly being able to quickly and accurately PINPOINT why ours is making our truck do weird shit. But likely wind up spending more and leaving with a few unanswered questions. Tough call to make.

 

I think it is time to start tracing wires and determine, and document, the wiring of the AFR gauge...I think that might tell is if the AFR gauge was controlling the engine or the other way around.

Howard