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Sound Deadening. Attention Experts.

Discussion in 'Audio & Video' started by skierpunk, Apr 15, 2009.

  1. Apr 15, 2009 at 10:52 AM
    #1
    skierpunk

    skierpunk [OP] Well-Known Member

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    Attention stereo ‘experts’
    I scrolled through other threads about his but could not find the answer I was looking for. I have a family friend who used to run an audio store. He was the owner and head installer. I was talking with him about setting my truck up with a good system. He went on to say that dynamat and similar products are basically a lost cause and unnecessary to install in my truck. He claimed that the product doesn’t make much of a difference and is mostly a marketing ploy. And in fact some audio places won’t actually install as much mat as you pay for. After all, how many people are going to rip their doors and floor to pieces to make sure they indeed got what they paid for. SO my dilemma is this - I’ve always thought and been told that dynamat is a must and makes momentous improvements to any stereo upgrade, not I don’t know what to think. Help please.
     
  2. Apr 15, 2009 at 10:56 AM
    #2
    DanGer

    DanGer Avatar approved by 98tacomav6

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    First of all you can get many other product that give you a better bang for the buck than dynomat. As much as i wish it wasn't true our truck are very rattle prone. I installed nice new amplified speakers without any sound deadening and regret it immensely. You get a HUGE improvement with a deadened vehicle so I would definitely do it. Raamat offers us a good discount.
     
  3. Apr 15, 2009 at 11:19 AM
    #3
    CoreyJ

    CoreyJ Well-Known Member

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    Being an installer for 10 years, I can tell you your friend is wrong. Sound deadening makes a huge difference in these trucks.

    Dynamat and Second Skin are the two brands I recommend. The tend to stay in place longer than some other brands.
     
  4. Apr 15, 2009 at 11:46 AM
    #4
    GoBlueFan

    GoBlueFan Well-Known Member

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    Step bars, billet grill with custom TOYOTA, MB Quart RSI 216 components, Hifonics ZXi 4410, RAAMmat deadened doors/back wall/roof covered with ensolite , 24" Magnaflow muffler, hand polished stock exhaust tip, tinted, OEM TRD Bilstiens all around with 1/4" spacers up front to level it out. Sport wheels added.
    wow...he actually said that?:confused: You need to experience the difference yourself then...it's night and day.

    Sorry, but yer friend is wrong big time on this one.


    One thing for sure BEFORE you install any deadening material, is to prep the surface and make sure it's absolutly clean. It'll last a lot longer and be more effective.
     
  5. Apr 15, 2009 at 7:03 PM
    #5
    TorenApart

    TorenApart Well-Known Member

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    For every one person who says that it isn't worth it, you'll find 99 that disagree. This is probably one of the only things that 99% of car audio enthusiasts won't disagree on much. Sound dampening is a must!

    Good luck!
     
  6. Apr 15, 2009 at 7:31 PM
    #6
    sooner07

    sooner07 1/2 man 1/2 amazing

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    Yep, sound deadening is absolutely a good addition to most any vehicle, especially yours. I do not recommend dynamat, as it is very expensive compared to other products. The dynamat extreme is a better product, but is even more expensive. I recommend raammat as the best bang for the buck in sound deadening material.


    I don't understand how he considers it a lost cause. There are some negatives to the different materials and sound dampening materials in general (mostly that they add weight) but f you aren't racing, and in which case, get rid of your entire sound system, that weight doesn't make a hill of beans.

    It can be fairly easy for a shop to rip you off with them doing the install, which is one of the reasons I'd suggest doing all your audio installs yourself if at all possible.
     
  7. Apr 15, 2009 at 9:22 PM
    #7
    skierpunk

    skierpunk [OP] Well-Known Member

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    Thanks for all the feedback! Very helpful.
    Now that I'm questioning my friends credentials I'll see if you guys can help. My plan was to power my front speakers (focal 165 KF) and the sub ( JL 13tw5 or Kicker cvr) via an Alpine PDX 4.150 amp and run the rear speakers off deck power. He informed me that it's possible to bridge 2 channels at 2 ohms and run power to both front and back speakers, or something similar, then use the other channels for the sub. Is that even possible?
     
  8. Apr 16, 2009 at 12:14 AM
    #8
    Evil Monkey

    Evil Monkey There's an evil monkey in my truck

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    I did a sound comparison/recording so you can hear the difference. Same song. All volume settings of the recorder and the stereo volume are the same between the two recordings. The only difference was the presence of sound deadening in the doors (no subs at the time of the recording). You can hear the difference in volume and bass response (though the bass still weak without the sub).

    You'll have to download the recorded songs from the links.

    http://www.tacomaworld.com/forum/audio-video/19912-raammat-finished.html

    Here's a side-by-side shot of the waveform of the two mp3's side by side in Audacity. You can definitely see the difference in volume:
    screenshot.jpg
     
  9. Apr 16, 2009 at 9:52 AM
    #9
    Chickenmunga

    Chickenmunga Nuggety

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    EvilMonkey, that is neat. Good show, sir! ;)


    Go with the JL, this is one of the rare times when I can say that one speaker is head and shoulders better than the other.


    This is a better idea than his proposal, it will give you a better 'placement' of your sound. However, I would rather you have a dedicated sub amp. By the way, what deck are you using? It will be very important to utilize the deck's crossover protection.



    First off, the PDX do something different about ohm loads: "PDX amplifiers have the unique capability to deliver the same power output regardless of 2Ω and 4Ω loads".
    From their website, bridging channels presents a 4Ω load, FYI.
    Back in high school when we had to jimmy-rig everything, we did a similar setup to what your guy is suggesting. We stuck the speakers on the front channels and then bridged the rear for a sub. The problem with this setup is that we couldn't set any filters to protect the speakers and had to use the deck's fade control as a 'sub volume level' adjustment. Needless to say, it could be done, but it was far from pretty.


    Looking at your choice of speakers, it sounds like you have a very healthy budget for this. If you want to continue with Alpine, I would change your amps to a PDX4.150 and a PDX1.600. If you don't have that much space (you technically do), you could try the PDX-5, but you wouldn't be delivering as much power as you'd like.
     
  10. Apr 16, 2009 at 11:31 AM
    #10
    GoBlueFan

    GoBlueFan Well-Known Member

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    I think you need to stop listening to your friend when it comes to stereo install.:D


    Great illistration Evil...even those that don't know a thing about audio, can see or hear that difference, and more importantly, know WHY it's better.

    I gotta agree with Chicken...that's a solid plan for an awesome system. I'd opt for the extra sub amp...it will be much better sounding and you'll have full control of the entire system.
     
  11. Apr 16, 2009 at 12:22 PM
    #11
    skierpunk

    skierpunk [OP] Well-Known Member

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    Wow, thanks for all the help! I'm at school right now so I won't be able to listen until tonight, but it looks like it should be very informative based on the graphs.
     
  12. Apr 16, 2009 at 12:41 PM
    #12
    skierpunk

    skierpunk [OP] Well-Known Member

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    My budget is not actually as big as it appears. One good thing my friend is able to do is help get all my components for cost. Plus I already have a head unit and all the wiring from a previous setup.

    Is the reason you recommend running a dedicated sub amp because you have better control over the speakers and sub? Or is it a power issue? Also I've heard the 5th channel on the PDX-5 is pretty lean when trying to power everything from one source. SO I'm not sure that is a good solution either?

    My goal for this system was to keep it simple and 'downsize' minimizing the space I take up. Hopefully leaving space behind the double rear seat open for storage.

    Here's what I currently have that i COULD put in the truck - but this would defeat my goal of a simple and minimal space system:

    Alpine CDA - 9855 glide touch headunit
    Alpine V12 MRD M500 Mono sub amp.
    Alpine V12 MRV-F345 4/3/2 channel amp.
    Alpine Type-R 10'' But that definitely wont fit.

    Not only are these amps LARGE but they also require more ventilation than the PDX series.
     
  13. Apr 16, 2009 at 1:30 PM
    #13
    Chickenmunga

    Chickenmunga Nuggety

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    That definitely changes things! :D

    That's the main reason
    That would be the other reason (when referring to the above amps).

    I wouldn't be surprised, the posted specs don't show very much headroom as-is. Again, it's an option, but not necessarily ideal sound-wise. I was offering it as a tradeoff in case space was more important, or if cost was an issue.

    This was my original intention also, but my pocketbook won out because of the amps I already had (see sig). Since I kept with my amps, I tried having Marv make a half-height sub box with a ledge on top that I could turn into a bin. I need to mod up the bin portion a bit, but I will be able to use it for small things like ratchet straps and screwdrivers, etc.
    Lesson learned though, unless you can fit everything in one side or the other, you may as well use the whole space for sound.

    I don't think any of that would fit. Here's a comparison between my stuff and yours.



    My measurements in mm:
    469 x 193 x 60 (4ch)
    400 x 193 x 60 (sub)
    These amps are installed, and the smaller sub amp slightly presses agains the seat back.


    Your measurements in mm:

    330 x 228 x 60
    270 x 242 x 60

    As you can see, yours would take too much vertical room, and would prevent the seat from locking upright. At the very least, you would have to remove the plastic from the rear of the seat.
     
  14. Apr 16, 2009 at 11:31 PM
    #14
    skierpunk

    skierpunk [OP] Well-Known Member

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    All this talk and new information has got me totally rethink my setup. Would my Alpine V12 MRV-F345 amp have enough juice to power all 4 door speaker in the cab? Also is it better to run uniform products throughout the car? For instance, I have an Alpine HU and I'm thinking about using focal or morel speakers up front, kenwood in the rear, and a JL, or alpine sub. All powered with an alpine 4 channel amp and a kenwood mono sub amp. That's a lot of miss and matching...but I'm considering these products based on size, price, and what I already have.

    And I went and listened to subs today to compare sounds and quality. I preferred the sound of an alpine type-s over any of the kicker subs. The Alpine sounded tighter and more musical. The JLTW5 sounded awesome as well. I know the JL is a much more sophisticated sub with better technology but is it really THAT much better? Is it worth 400+ more dollars ?
     
  15. Apr 17, 2009 at 5:35 AM
    #15
    GoBlueFan

    GoBlueFan Well-Known Member

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    when listening to speakers in a room, take consideration for how they are mounted/installed in the sound room. They usually have them in a generic box which can play a part in how each speaker performs.

    Installation of a system has MUCH more bearing on how it will sound than what components you choose. .02
     
  16. Apr 17, 2009 at 9:35 AM
    #16
    Chickenmunga

    Chickenmunga Nuggety

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    That's some spot-on advice. There's a place in Salem whose 'sound room' is just an area in the middle of the sales floor. As a result, shallow-mount subs sound horrific because there's way too much 'cabin area' to compete with.

    The amp does 75Wx4, and the Focal you want are looking for 150W. This setup would be OK, but technically the speakers are looking for more.
    My amp does 75x4 at 4Ω, the Clarus speakers are 100W RMS. I'm not worried.

    HOWEVER, remember what I said about space. If you want to keep that amp, you will need a new sub amp.


    No reason to. It's best to pick and choose between items to get the best out of what each company has to offer.


    That's about the same response I'd give :)

    Only if YOU think it is. Can you hear $400 of difference, or is it doing something that the other sub can't (such as installation)? I said "no way José! I'm too cheap, and this sounds just as good!" and went with the sub in my sig.


    If you haven't already talked to him, I would highly suggest calling Mr. Marv because he's 10x more informed than I am on all of this and may have some ideas on how to design your setup. He's probably talked with half the people on this forum and is one of the few audio people I will listen to without reservation.
     
  17. Apr 17, 2009 at 10:31 AM
    #17
    TorenApart

    TorenApart Well-Known Member

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    I will attest to the quality of the 10w3v2-4. I just finished the installation in a box from Marv and the sound quality is phenomenal. Not saying a TW5 isn't awesome, but I rest assured you will not be left unsatisfied with the 10'' w3.

    Definitely call Marv. He has so much knowledge you could consume an entire night talking care audio with him (I've done it several times!). He will not steer you wrong!
     
  18. Apr 17, 2009 at 10:36 AM
    #18
    skierpunk

    skierpunk [OP] Well-Known Member

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    Are you talking about stereoking or bestbuy in Salem. I'm from Salem. Who did you have install your stereo?
     
  19. Apr 17, 2009 at 11:17 AM
    #19
    Chickenmunga

    Chickenmunga Nuggety

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    I might have the name wrong, but the sound room I was referring to was Salem Sound Source on Portland Road next to Stuart's auto. This poor Pioneer shallow mount was trying to hammer away in a room bigger than my last house. I could barely hear it, so I couldn't use it in my comparisons :(

    I had my head unit installed by Beaverton Car Toys only because they do it for free and it's one of the few jobs a shop can't make too much of a mess of.


    Hehe, methinks your friend used to work for Hear No Evil? I would have said Cartunes because they closed up, but they never carried Focal.
     
  20. Apr 17, 2009 at 11:30 AM
    #20
    skierpunk

    skierpunk [OP] Well-Known Member

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    He used to work for a place on market street that closed awhile ago. He's been out of the industry for 5 or so years. Hear No Evil usually does a good job. Expect for when they installed my head unit awhile back. They scratched the paint off the silver dash with a screw driver while trying to pry out the heater/ac controls. And put 4 nice pencil size dents and paint ships on the dash, looked like they set the headunit up there. My truck was a month old at this point!
     
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