Space and Science BS Thread

Its not some random empty lot you can just walk across let alone drive a bulldozer across and scrape clean but some of the difficulties stem from the apparent lack of Spacex coordinating with them and shutting down those efforts with short notice road closures. Lots of bureaucratic nonsense but the problem only exists because Spacex is blowing things up and blasting debris where it shouldn’t go as a consequence of their policy of rapid iteration. Clean up is difficult, understandable but the pad debris highlights the situation because it was entirely preventable and should have been. Spacex pressed ahead when their agenda outweighed their adherence to their responsibility and since no one else was in the room to tell them no they’re getting sued after the fact.

 

https://twitter.com/mastronomers/status/1678074324484341761?s=46

 

That's a big wall a bureaucracy. Let me simplify it. Explosions and debris were taken into account with the environmental review. It's literally one of the big reasons they are where they are. And they're not the only ones blowing up rockets, they're just the one with the most coverage.

There should be no need to submit a plan for retrieval for every piece of debris. You can train and certify a crew for debris removal techniques that minimalize environmental damage while ensuring compliance with random audits. It's not that hard.

SpaceX is a large company with a target on their back. They always have a suit or 20 going on against them.

 

It pisses me off that we have bureaucracies and disappointed that we need them but it’s still on Spacex to work WITH those agencies to accomplish debris removal and the random, short notice road closures played havoc with those efforts. Now there’s a much larger field of debris to go with that lack of coordination. Being allowed for vs doing the job is the crux. Obvious they are at loggerheads over the details which proved lacking and now they’re in court instead of out there cleaning up. Big companies are targeted because they make big messes and they are certainly blowing up more by far than anyone else. Bureaucracies are inefficient but without them those big companies would either do nothing or make the situation worse because it’s not their primary concern. Add in different agencies(NASA, FAA, Parks, EPA, & God knows who else) with conflicting priorities compounding the infighting doesn’t help. No, Spacex is not solely at fault but I don’t see them as blameless either considering they blew up ~1000 cubic yards of concrete and steel because Elon didn’t want to wait for the necessary upgrade. That wasn’t the fault of some bureaucracy. It’s why we’re all stuck with them.

 

It wasn't just Elon that didn't want to wait. Based on the static fire test campaign, they were reasonably sure the fondag would hold long enough to protect the conventional concrete piling cap to get 24/7 off the pad. It was an educated risk for flight test data they needed to move the program forward. Since hindsight is always 20/20, they are correcting the issue and adding the deluge. You have to remember that Shotwell is running things down there and she is going to listen to her engineers and simulation teams and make a decision. Elon Musk is out of the day to day decision making.

 

Companies get sued when their products fail to meet performance standards. With experimental projects the concern is containment. In this case it was the pad with no adequate deluge or flame trench, something they already knew had to be upgraded. It’s easy to claim hindsight but even a short full power test would have exposed this. Even with few engines and at low power it was readily apparent to all that there would be enough damage to put the rocket at risk with engines getting replaced after most static fires and the concern over shielding. They routinely test ship articles to failure but in this instance didn’t even test stage zero to the minimum for success. It’s that reluctance in this instance alone that muddies the “hindsight” claim. If Elon has no influence I’ll eat my hat.

 

Companies getting sued does not mean they did anything wrong at all. A company I worked for fired a new employee after 2 weeks because he would go to break, get high, then come back to work and fall asleep. Written up 3 times for it in 2 weeks. He later sued them for racism. Lost, but still tried to sue. Innocent until proven guilty.

As for the concrete not holding up and being foreseen beforehand. I disagree. They had several tests that showed it would hold up, and in fact it did. It wasn't until it compressed the soil below that the concrete failed due to lack of support. But the article was talking about sn11 cleanup. As for the big launch, that basically threw rocks into a field and arguably doesnt even need to be cleaned up.

 

https://twitter.com/space_station/status/1678499236189487104?s=46

 

Innocent until proven guilty doesn’t mean you don’t get charged, that’s a burden on a jury.

For what, 3 seconds at full power. Tell me what test they did to simulate that. No partial power test was ever anything more than engine and stage 0 hardware testing. And in every single case the concrete continued to fail, to the point it had to be dug up and repoured even after just partial power static fires and not the full 33 engines. Failure is failure, blaming soil compress is obfuscation as it’s just a different point of weakness not found because more than likely they knew it would damage the booster and because they didn’t test it they didn’t find out what else was wrong and just how wrong. You test to find out what you don’t know and check your assumptions at the door.

Not buying any of that but it’s up to the lawyers now. Hopefully it doesn’t slow things much and they can resume operations soon after they finish the upgrades and get 9 back with its engines installed.

 

Exactly this. It's been long enough now that the concrete chunks have become part of the landscape for the critters that live in the tidal flats and removing them may end up being the removal of shelter, etc for the wildlife.

 

I'm a biologist (at least that's what my business cards say). I do nepa and environmental regulatory for a living.

There is some hilarious stuff in this thread......

 

Yeah, what can you expect from arm chair engineers on a Tacoma enthusiasts forum?

 

And Vulcan is gonna fly when????
https://www.cnbc.com/2023/07/11/jef...-4-rocket-engine-explodes-during-testing.html

https://twitter.com/thesheetztweetz/status/1678844068703477762?s=46

https://twitter.com/thesheetztweetz/status/1678844212941389825?s=46
https://twitter.com/thesheetztweetz/status/1678850341989695489?s=46

 

About a year since they were testing the two cert-1 mission engines. Really crankin ‘em out aren’t they. They need to change their slogan to spinning wheels ferociously.

 

ESA’s going to the moon:
https://twitter.com/howellspace/status/1679174303487791104?s=46

 

ULA guys have been told the company has been sold but they arent being told to who. Said they should know early next year.

 

That’s a great way to make your entire workforce anxious for the future.

 

While I agree, the techs that I know shouldn't leave the ULA/IAM union for X or Blue, neither of which have a union. Tough spot when its unclear if a buyout from Bezos/Blue would mean the union contract would continue.

 

A BO buyout of ULA sounds tragic…

In other news, the recently launched Viasat satellite is looking like an expensive and wasteful failure:
https://twitter.com/djsnm/status/1679259966211776515?s=46

 

How does something appear to be made by a company. Either it is, or it isn't...