Tacoma DCSB Winter Driving:Is there a significant difference in the snow between M/T and snow tires?

Maybe the same number of belts or "plies" ("plys"?), but the sidewalls are not the same strength. The Load Range (C, D, or E) is a way of converting current tire construction to the old-school construction which was "ply rating". Here are the ply ratings for C, D, and E tires:
C 6
D 8
E 10
Load range indicates horizontal and sidewall strength (source: TireRack.com). E-load tires are rated to carry more weight than C-load tires, and this is, in part, due to having thicker stronger sidewalls - regardless of the number of belts or plies in the sidewall. As a consequence, E-load tires are always heavier than C-load tires (when comparing same brand and size). For example, the BFG KO2, in 265/70/17 in C-load is 44 pounds, while the E-load tire in the same size is 53 pounds. Source: https://www.tirerack.com/tires/CompareTires.jsp

Here is a comparison of the Duratrac C-load (44 pounds) vs. E-load (51 pounds), also in 265/70/17:
https://www.tirerack.com/tires/CompareTires.jsp

The extra weight in the E-load tires translates to stronger sidewalls.

 

My Coopers work awesome on wet pavement. KO2’s and Nitto Trail Grapplers suck balls on wet pavement.

 

Oh wow good to know did you get them siped?

 

Ok I think I saw it discussed here but will have to read through it again later

https://www.tacomaworld.com/threads...hickens-on-page-5.514743/page-7#post-16281150

 

I'll stay with Michelin MS2's. I've found they're a very good all around tire. Mud, snow, ice, sand, highway, very good all around tire.

 

Actually Car and Driver did some testing not to long ago that showed that the latest gritted and high end materials out performed studded snow tires on pack snow. It’s crazy but some of the dedicated snow tires on the higher end are at least equals to studded tires.

 

Yeah that 30% silica silane content in them stt pros sure seems grippy to me in wet conditions. My experience. Does great in the snow but I don’t recommend them over a snow tire.

 

I haven’t siped any of my Coopers. Had to on the Trail Grapplers. Spent a lot of time in the mountains of Asheville last winter with zero issues running STT Pro’s. Only brand of tire I’ll ever buy again.

 

I think basically any type of aggressive tread with large blocks in it will do okay in loose snow, just because it can dig into the snow. Pack snow is not a condition that is especially dangerous in most cases. What differentiates winter tires is ice performance, because ice will wreck your whole day in a very short amount of time.

I usually look at this Norwegian test because they buy the tires off the shelf, they are not "specials" supplied by tire manufacturers (did C&D buy the tires at the store?). You will see that 40% of the score is ice performance, and the studded tires typically score higher because they have far shorter stopping distances on ice. I don't doubt that if you put bits of fibreglass or such into the compound, you can sort of approach the performance of an aluminum stud, but I still think studs are king on ice.

https://translate.google.com/transl...rbrukertester/dekktester/vinterdekktest-2017/

 

Yeah, I’m not a fan of studs. I’m happy though the technology is closing the gap though.

 

There is a standard to earn the severe winter service rating aka snowflake symbol, and certainly NOT set by each manufacturer. Some gov’t agencies even rely on those ratings. Some places in Canada as noted in the linked article below. And I know for sure in Oregon (Mt. Hood?) where chains or “traction tires” are required. Traction tires, meaning ones with the mtn snow flake symbol.

https://www.tirerack.com/winter/tech/techpage.jsp?techid=125&affiliate=TX3

Not to take this off topic, but although arb would never publish any crash test data, guessing mainly for liability reasons, you will readily find many Australians who swear by them, typically due to many animal strikes they experience. I’m not saying they’re a magical force field, but seems like they help more than hurt. Airbag compatible as well (the only one, I believe).

 

Went to Les Schwab today.
They gave me 1k for my old Toyo R/Ts and I got the 10ply Toyo AT2s put on (the 10 ply have 16/32 tread depth vs 11/32 of the 4 ply, if I remember right). They siped the tires but balanced/mounted for free.
HOLY $#@!
The difference is incredible. Rides quieter (as expected), actually sticks to wet pavement and takes bumps/potholes MUCH better than the R/Ts.
I feel like I got my old truck back.
I honestly didn't expect THIS big of a difference. Lesson learned. Nobody told me how big of a difference a mud terrain style tire would be and this wasn't an area of expertise on my part but I'm wiser for it.

Looking back, I'm surprised they even sell these tires without letting people know how crappy they are in all conditions outside of off-roading. All terrains are the way to go... no looking back.

 

I run blizzacks and they are defiantly an up grade from the factory ones on the SR, traction rated b. sometimes I don't even need the 4x4.

 

Many underground parkades already ban them.

 

I live in Canada lol, I know the provinces where it’s mandated. As had been said, and is in your article, any tire that rates 10% above the “stock” tire for grip according to the manufacturer gets the snowflake symbol. In no way is it a solid definable high end value. In essence, it’s a low bar that even some stock ATs pass.

Animal strikes are one of the strongest reasons to get a steel bumper, since they can prevent the animal from going through the windshield and in most collisions remain relatively unscathed by the force of a deer.

Airbag compatible is based off the crush cans I mentioned earlier, which ARB uses on every design in the exact same way. They were designed before SRS was even a thing, so no you shouldn’t put your faith in their marketing. They simply aren’t designed for every vehicle uniquely. No, the system likely doesn’t hurt but it doesn't magically make the whole system work as well as stock. The safest collision system, apart from things like animal strikes, is the stock system including stock bumper which is rigorously tested to meet a well established standard.

 

Is the snow flake the same as a tire rated M+S?

 

And great treadware.

 

No.

M+S is a manufacturer designation I believe, and the three peak mountain snowflake means the tire has met certain standards set forth by the ASTM.

Generally they will be similar though.

 

Silica is added SPECIFICALLY for wet weather performance. Years back when Metzeler motorcycle tires added it you either ran them in the rain or crashed or finished dead last.

 

I've seen studies that find studded tires are better on ice than studless tires, and I've seen studies that found studless tires (like Blizzaks) to be better than studded tires. There are some good comparisons here:
https://tires.tirerack.com/tires/Stud Vs Studless

It depends on the study, and how they test the tires, and also what tires they test. I don't have a dog in the fight - other than I want good winter tires! Just for kicks - here is another study that found studded tires outperform studless tires:
https://www.consumersearch.com/snow-tires/best-studded-snow-tires

I definitely understand people who don't like studs: they are noisy on dry roads, and they degrade the roads. These are both worth thinking about before buying studded tires. There are great winter tires both with, and without studs, so we have options!