Tacoma DCSB Winter Driving:Is there a significant difference in the snow between M/T and snow tires?

Science, bro.

 

scro

 

Interesting video. However, note that there were differences in compounds of the tires tested. Studded was far inferior to the studded, according to the narrator. So that's not a surprise it was bested. But same tire on ice, one studded and one not, I don't think there would be any doubt studded would perform better.

I agree with the dry road performance. Hated the click click and degraded handling. Unless I lived in an area that had complete snow coverage during the snow months, I would forego studded tires.

 

Yeah - you are right on regarding the rubber. These tests never control for all factors. The key when buying a tire is to remember that every choice in designing a tire to improve one area of performance, typically detracts from some other area of performance.

The key ingredients in a snow tire are: (1) high silica rubber, (2) siping, (3) tread pattern designed for snow and/or ice, and - if you opt for them - (4) studs. Typically, when studded tires are compared to studless tires, the studded tires have firmer rubber than the studless tires. This is because studless tires rely more heavily on the high silica rubber for grip - and as a consequence - they tend to wear faster because that rubber is soft (e.g. Blizzaks). Studded tires will often use a slightly firmer rubber for longer tread wear, and make up for the loss of winter traction by adding studs.

All winter tires fall on a continuum with regard to rubber. With regard to studless tires, Blizzaks have one of the highest silica contents, so they grip great, but wear fast. Buy Blizzaks if you want great winter traction, don't want studs, and prioritize winter traction over tire longevity. But if performance on dry roads is important to you (many owners of all-wheel drive sports cars fall into this category), you can opt for a winter tire that has lower silica content; such a tire will handle better in the corners, but provide less snow/ice traction. For example, Audi recommends the Dunlop Winter Sport 3D for the S4 and RS4.

With regard to studded tires, the Nokian Hakka 8 and 9 are on one end of the spectrum, having both studs and fairly high-silica rubber, whereas tires like the Cooper ST Maxx are on the other end of the spectrum, having studs (if you opt for them) and an all-season rubber.

No tire choice is "the best" - rather, everyone has different priorities, so the best tire for one person may be a terrible choice for another. The two big factors in making a winter tire choice are (1) how often do you anticipate winter driving conditions, and (2) how do you feel in those winter conditions.

 

Since we have discussed this to death here is a little video of our local conditions on Christmas Day. This is WHY I run full snows on a 4wd truck. When I say we have changing conditions in less than a mile (or KM for my homeboys) I mean it. Solid snow covered or deep snow or clean roads I can handle no problems. It is the rapidly changing conditions that are the most dangerous and the ones that put you in the ditch. About 2 hours from when this video was taken a guy lost his Chrysler 300 right where the wet roads turned into snow covered drifts. You can’t tell but the ditch on the right is snow filled and about 8’ deep as he found out. Looks like he caught the edge of the shoulder and it sucked him in. We had 6’+ and this is what didn’t get blown away.

2-3 winters ago Lake Erie froze almost completely and we had the wind strip the snow off the lake ice and dump it on the shoreline and inland. The main road into town had a 16’ drift on one shoulder tapering down to 1’ on the other shoulder. We had to drive into the field to get around the drifts on the roads. The snow plows had to stop and turn around and wait for loaders to dig out the road for them to pass.

Before I go one last word. A lot of people keep pushing studded tires bla bla bla. I don’t know if everyone realizes this but studs are BANNED in many places. In my area they are banned. Northern Ontario on top of the Great Lakes they are allowed but in Southern Ontario if you are caught with them you had better have your registration to an address in the north or you get ticketed. IF you are allowed the use of studs in your area it is something to consider. But simply pushing studs as superior is a little ignorant when it isn’t a possibility for many.

Just over a minute, no audio to annoy you.

 

They are not banned in "many places." Southern Ontario is about the only place in Canada where studs are banned. In every other place in Canada and internationally, at least that experiences a real winter, you can run them. The ban in Southern Ontario might have made sense in the 70s, but stud technology has advanced very far since then, and they really don't hurt the road at all anymore. What damages roads is semi trailers, the road does not even feel passenger vehicles.

If you do get a ticket for running studs in Southern Ontario, you plead not-guilty and you have a chat with the prosecutor. You ask him/her if they have a lab report showing the Moh's hardness of the studs they claim you were using. They will not have one, and the charge will be withdrawn because they don't have enough evidence to prove every element of the charge because of the way the law was written. And they don't want to set a precedent by trying someone who is willing to raise that defence.

 

From what I've read - I think it has actually been a pretty thoughtful discussion, with people recognizing the value of driving in winter using either studded or studless tires - as long as they are winter tires. There has also been discussion of - not just the positive aspects of studded tires with regard to traction - but also of the negative aspects of studded tires, including: increased noise on dry pavement, decreased handling and other performance on dry pavement, and the degradation of paved roads (hence the reason they are banned in some places). Due to long and harsh winters, studded tires are legal all across northern Europe, and in the U.S. most states allow studded tires - albeit with restrictions. Click here and scroll down for a map of the U.S. showing where studs are legal, and with what restrictions: https://www.tirebuyer.com/education/studded-winter-tires
Forty of the fifty U.S. states allow studded tires, although most only permit them during winter months. I'm sure you can find a similar map for Canada.

I'll admit to pushing for winter tires for people who drive a lot in winter conditions. Frankly, I don't like it when I - or my family - are being endangered by people spinning 360s on a snowy interstate because they are running bad tires. I run studded tires because its a choice I've made based on the conditions I drive in, but I don't recommend them across the board. They do not make sense for the majority of drivers. As I wrote above in Post #124: "No tire choice is "the best" - rather, everyone has different priorities, so the best tire for one person may be a terrible choice for another. The two big factors in making a winter tire choice are (1) how often do you anticipate winter driving conditions, and (2) how do you feel in those winter conditions."

 

Opinion or fact? Lets see your proof.

 

Please name another place in Canada that bans studs in the winter months. Take as long as you like.

Studs today are much lower mass than they were in the 70s, and they really do very little damage. Southern Ontario is out of step with the rest of the world.

I will 100% trade off a little dry grip for the ice performance of a stud tire.

 

Sorry not in the mood to have a contest of who can piss farther into the wind. You speak of internationally and then restrict my reply to CANADA. At least stickshifter has some data which still shows 20% of the US bans them. If I am wrong in how many places ban them then I am wrong. But my point stands in that studs are not allowed everywhere which when compared to non studded technology you are comparing apples to grapefruit. You have to compare studded to studded and non-studded to non-studded.

 

It was yourself who challenged my assertion. You need to tune into what we are telling you. It is highly unusual, for a jurisdiction that has severe winters, to ban studs. That is because they are a type of safety equipment, and no tire is going to stop you faster on ice than a stud tire. The reasons for banning studs are in the distant past. I haven't looked, but I bet the US states that ban studs are ones that don't get severe winters.

 

A lot of personal attacks there. Maybe you need to read the TW code of conduct.

I admitted that I may be wrong in how many places ban studs (things have changed since I was younger) but it still doesn’t change that MANY places still do ban or restrict them. If we can’t agree please move on. I am not here to argue with someone who can’t debate respectfully or who attacks simply based on where I live and implies I have no opinion due to my location.(“because you are not qualified to vote”)

 

Based on the data in the following link, Ontario is the only province in Canada that bans studded tires; studded tires are permitted in the other 12 provinces, with most of those provinces permitting them only in winter months. I don't know how reliable this data is, but here you go:
http://www.brunowessel.com/studs/stud_seasons.asp

 

All this talk about winter tires anyone know where I can get a good deal on purchasing a set of Blizzacks in 17?

 

95% of my driving is highway with closest thing to off road being a trip to the cottage
I am currently running Bridgestone Alezna H/L plus spring/summer/fall (will call them 3 season since there is no way they are ALL season up here in Ontario.

So this is WHY I choose to run dedicated winters. Your situation will of course vary

In the winter I have always relied on a separate set of mounted snow tires on rims...
Some have mentioned the cost being a disadvantage... but there are four things that negate this

#1 if they keep you from hitting anything , even if its not another car then then they have paid for themselves

#2 when you are using them you are saving wear and tear on your non snow tires. I don't drive a lot now so I get at least 5-6 seasons out of a set of snow tires. That works out to about $200 a year for the first set of mounted snow tires. up here that's like 2 tanks of gas...

#3 plain jane steel rims are much more likely to withstand the postholes and the occasional impact with curbs than aluminum... they will bend a bit rather than crack. I would much prefer a slightly dented steel rim than an aluminum one that has cracked, lost all of its air and left me to change a tire in the middle of a snow storm.

#4 I am frequently driving with my kids in the car and $200 a year is well worth their safety.

 

These same tires for me on a Jeep Sahara 4 door were just OK. Also here in Colorado. I managed but had to be careful. I have new Nitto Trail Grapplers on the Tacoma and am a bit concerned about the coming winter. Wife’s Explorer does great though so may be driving that more. Tom we are doing China Wall on Sunday if you would like to join let me know and will send you details.

 

40 years ago I had a small pickup Dodge Ram D50. For weight as you mention I use some premix concrete stuff I had laying around. Bags broke open then got wet and that was a mess! Don’t use that like I did. Now I will use my oversized spare tire strapped in under the cover like I do when I go off roading.