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Terrible Weekend

Discussion in 'Personal & Emotional Support' started by Toy4Life, Aug 4, 2008.

  1. Aug 4, 2008 at 7:08 PM
    #41
    piercedtiger

    piercedtiger Devout Atheist

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    I'm sorry, but if you have a dog that lives in the house with the family and isn't bred for fighting or hunting, then it's a family member. Treat it as such, or don't own one. Period. If you want one for a status symbol or a "lawn ornament" that's tied up outside all day, doesn't get taken for walks or played with, then you don't deserve one.

    With that said, do you send kids off for adoption for fighting? Or put them down for it? I don't care if kids aren't the same as dogs in your mind, but they are both living beings you've agreed to take into your family and take care of.

    Do you put a cat down for scratching you and drawing blood after stepping on it's tail?

    I can't believe you're jumping to putting the dog down if you've really owned so many rescue animals as you say. Why do you think they were rescue animals? It's not because they had perfect homes and just decided to move on. It's because they were neglected, abused, abandoned, etc and you decided to give them a second chance by getting a rescued animal instead of one from a breeder or pet shop. And yet Carter doesn't deserve a second chance? :rolleyes:

    I mean seriously, do you really have any idea how an abused or neglected animal is going to act when rescued? And yet you still did it....
     
  2. Aug 4, 2008 at 7:31 PM
    #42
    mws4ua

    mws4ua I'll try being nicer if you try being smarter.

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    My dogs were all inside dogs, all went for plenty of walks - several miles at a time, and all got lots of loving attention. I'm not sure what else I need to say here. There's no way for you to know how I treat my dogs from what I've said, so I don't know why you assume I'm a terrible pet owner.

    This is a rediculous argument. Dogs don't equal people. I don't understand how you or anybody else get to the point that you equate animal and human life. Stop comparing the two, they're not comparable.

    No, I wouldn't put a cat down for scratching me when I step on its tail. I wouldn't put a dog down for snapping at me when I reach for its food, or step on its foot. I wouldn't put any animal down for reacting the way that an animal would if provoked.

    There is a major difference here. As far as we KNOW, the dog attacked the boy without being provoked. We can assume that the dog was provoked, but if we take the word of the boy (who seems incredibly brave and mature for his age), then the dog had no reason to bite him. It was an unprovoked attack on a member of a HUMAN family.

    As i said before, if there's even a chance that there's something wrong with this dog and he might do it again, how can you allow it to remain around your family? Your young child?

    Can you really not believe that I would choose the safety of a child over the love of an animal? When you sit down and honestly think about the risk that he could be taking by keeping the dog, do you really not see where I'm coming from?

    I've owned dogs in the past that simply didn't fit with our situation at the time. All of these dogs were given multiple chances, and all but one were given to homes that could better accomodate their needs. A single dog that I've owned has been put down. It was a dog that I loved very much, but it absolutely did NOT get a second chance to attack the little boy that it bit.

    I do not value the life of any animal the same or more than any human. I'm sorry that you value your dog as an equal to your kids.

    Again, you don't know the whole situation. The rescued dog in question was one we owned for 4 years, from the time she was a puppy. She was playful, happy, laid back, and incredibly bright. One day, absolutely without being provoked (there were witnesses, as I said), she lunged at and attacked a young child. As much as we loved her (and we did - we still have several pictures of her around the house), we did not feel that we could take the chance that it would happen again. We made a difficult decision, but we made the correct decision, and we made if swiftly.

    I'm sorry that you think I am being unfeeling, but I can't understand how you put a dog's life on par with a human's.
     
  3. Aug 4, 2008 at 7:38 PM
    #43
    Toy4Life

    Toy4Life [OP] 668: The Neighbor of the Beast

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    I really like everyones input in this thread, but it is a touchy subject that everyone has an opinion on. So far I'm seeing civilized debating, but if it get's out of hand, I'll have the thread closed.
     
  4. Aug 4, 2008 at 7:41 PM
    #44
    mws4ua

    mws4ua I'll try being nicer if you try being smarter.

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    I enjoy the debate, too. I'm sorry if I seem to be getting close to getting out of hand, I'm trying to remain civil, and I never want to be the reason a thread is closed!

    I really do wish you the best of luck in your decision. I know that it's a difficult one, I'm just a little stubborn in my own thinking.

    I wish your son a speedy and complete recovery.
     
  5. Aug 4, 2008 at 7:46 PM
    #45
    Toy4Life

    Toy4Life [OP] 668: The Neighbor of the Beast

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    It wasn't getting out of hand, yet, not saying it would've.......I like hearing all the opinions...as, I have many conflicting thoughts of my own on the situation......I just don't want to see it get too heated.
     
  6. Aug 4, 2008 at 7:52 PM
    #46
    mws4ua

    mws4ua I'll try being nicer if you try being smarter.

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    Agreed... and again, good luck.
     
  7. Aug 4, 2008 at 7:52 PM
    #47
    piercedtiger

    piercedtiger Devout Atheist

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    Honestly, there are people out there I would sooner put down than my dog. But then again, those are people I've heard about setting animals on fire and such things. Somehow those people don't get locked up or put down, but a animal does something much less and is put down. I guess I don't see the equality here. I'm not god so I'm not one to judge which one's life is worth more than the other.

    I teach my kids to respect animals. If they don't and get bit or scratched, then it's their fault. They know the animal has sharp teeth and claws, and shouldn't be provoked. We tell them and tell them and tell them. Somethings just have to be learned the hard way.

    If it bit off a finger, mauled, or did something more than a butterfly stitch can fix, then we need to look at another option.

    I personally needed 6 stitches when I was 5, and another 8 when I was 10 or so. I put my hand through a window once, and needed butterfly stitches. Nearly every guy I went to high school with broke an arm, leg or wrist riding ATV's and dirt bikes. So minor injuries are a part of growing up to me, and I'm just waiting for the first bike accident my kids get into. I know it'll happen, and I'm not taking the bikes away hoping it'll never happen. It's certainly not like the episode of "Human Prey" I saw this weekend with mountain lion attacks! :laugh:

    I'm not saying I'm not sorry the boy was injured or that it's nothing to worry about. But I do think if the dog had really wanted to hurt him the injury could have easier been much worse. I also didn't see anything about having to pull the dog off him so it doesn't sound like an intentional, violent attack. More like an accident. I guess it would also help to know how the dog acted afterward. For instance, when my 3 year old steps/falls on our dog making her yelp and bark the 3yr old runs off crying. The dog then tucks her tail, flattens her ears, and looks upset about scaring the kid. She didn't mean to do it, but got a shock of pain from a 40lb kid hitting a sensitive spot and reacted.
     
  8. Aug 4, 2008 at 8:08 PM
    #48
    piercedtiger

    piercedtiger Devout Atheist

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    I know there must be a lot going through your head now. :( Especially if your wife is pushing to get rid of the dog... God knows I know how.... uhhh.... "persuasive" a wife can be.... :rolleyes: (The reason we had 4 cats and magically obtained a 5th this weekend....)

    I can also see you giving the dog up for adoption or to a rescue place, telling them what happened, and the dog gets put down anyway after you leave because they don't dare adopt it out.

    Either way, you've had the dog for a while right? Your son's not upset or afraid of him now right? And you know the hormones from not being fixed could affect him along with the new puppy so why not wait a while to make a decision. If you rush to get rid of the dog in any way, then you may regret it. Or you may regret keeping the dog. No one really knows, and you'll never know if you rush one way or the other. So I'd recommend keeping the dog for now, and keep them separated like you have until both you and your wife can calm down and think clearly about it.

    If you can get your dog to see your son as a "higher rank" in the pack so to speak, then he may go out of his way to earn back trust and respect. Like exiled wolves trying to get the Alpha to let them back in the pack. Either way it's good to let the dog know who's in charge and remind him of that.
     
  9. Aug 4, 2008 at 8:09 PM
    #49
    mws4ua

    mws4ua I'll try being nicer if you try being smarter.

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    At this point I think we have to agree to disagree on some points. I can see where you're coming from in much of what you say. I had to learn the hard way that if your hand gets too close to the dogs mouth while you play tug-of-war with a rope, you risk getting snapped. I learned that falling off a bike hurts, and that tripping over a curb hurts, too. My kids will fall of their bikes, and they'll get black eyes from baseballs to the face, and they'll slam their fingers in doors. We all do.

    I agree that children should learn how to behave around animals, and that not respecting an animal is asking to be bitten, scratched, etc. If I watch my child slap a dog and the dog snaps back, I'm not going to put the dog down. I'm going to teach the child why that is wrong.

    If I (or anybody else) knew that the dog was provoked in this case, I'd be saying something completely different. I might not have posted in the thread in the first place. That's not the case. As I said before, for all we know, this was an unprovoked attack.

    I agree that there was no mention of having to pull the dog off of the boy. If there was, I bet we would have read that the bad weekend included a dog attack, a few stitches, and putting a dog down.

    Putting myself in the situation: The only witness to the incident says that it was an unprovoked attack. I am no longer able to say, without a shadow of a doubt, that the dog is safe around my children. I didn't have to pull the dog off of my child this time, but now I have a reason to believe that I might have to do so in the future. I can't, with a clean conscience, give the dog to somebody else knowing that it could happen again.

    I don't think you have to be God to judge what life is worth more than another (when talking about humans vs. animals). I don't usually bring up God or the Bible in arguments I make, but since you did, I will say that the Bible is FULL of examples of God holding the lives of humans above the lives of animals. We don't have to pass judgement on the value of human life vs. animal life... God already did.

    Anyway, I respect your opinion, and I appreciate that we can have this kind of debate without resorting to foul language and name calling :D
     
  10. Aug 4, 2008 at 8:33 PM
    #50
    Toy4Life

    Toy4Life [OP] 668: The Neighbor of the Beast

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    I've got ten days to see how things go. No rash decisions here. I, again, appreciate the input.
     
  11. Aug 4, 2008 at 8:46 PM
    #51
    piercedtiger

    piercedtiger Devout Atheist

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    Sounds good. I wasn't trying to bring religion into this (I'm an atheist), only that I'm not a "supreme being" or anything I feel entitled to decide who lives or dies. (ok, except maybe serial killers, and lawyers.... typical scum of the earth "people". :D )

    I've just always been one to treat anything in the house as family if I invited it in. Friends, pets, whatever. My dog isn't in a crate, and the cats all have free range throughout the house as well. Personally, I like dealing with them more than most people so I probably treat them better than most people. :laugh:

    I've probably seen too many "When Animals Attack" and other shows on TV so I don't think the injury is that bad compared to them. :eek: Cougars scalping people, bears trying to eat them, dogs locking on with a death grip. Things like that. Images like that kinda went through my head when we adopted our Akita after hearing she could probably beat a pitbull in a fight from the lady we adopted her from. But we were also told that breed expects (sometimes demands) respect, and we've shown her that from day 1. It's been about a month now and as she proves trustworthy, we show more trust. Doesn't chase the cats, we don't yell at her for getting close to them. She comes when called and doesn't run away, we let her off the leash more. But we still have to maintain a firm hand over who's alpha, and not let her get away with things. She seems to accept that, and be quite happy with the situation. Which is why I trust this 80+lb beast around me 20lb 1yr old. Well that, and she acts like a rug most of the time. :laugh:

    Anyway, a decision about the dog must be mutual. If he keeps it and the wife wants it gone, then she'll be miserable and vice versa. My wife and I discussed getting a dog for a good couple months before actually looking for one to adopt! We were concerned about the baby and our hyper-active-squirrel-on-crack-ish 3yr old, but decided to try anyway. Most places I contacted in the area would not adopt to anyone with children under 6yrs old. I didn't want to wait that long, and seem to have found the perfect dog for the family. But it wasn't something we rushed into, and it's not some we'd rush out of if something happened. If the dog is civil to adults, and separated from the kids then there's no need to do anything while the adrenaline is still pumping and clouding judgment.

    My last dog bit my ex and wouldn't let her out of the house once. Had she jumped to a decision right then about getting rid of the dog she would not have heard the drive-by shooting 2 blocks away in the direction she wanted to walk. We also wouldn't have had a dog to scare away people coming up to our back windows to scope the place out. This probably doesn't add anything useful, but oh well. I'm tired and rambling. :laugh:
     
  12. Aug 4, 2008 at 8:54 PM
    #52
    piercedtiger

    piercedtiger Devout Atheist

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    Just out of curiosity, have you asked your son about keeping the dog or not? I know he's 4, but would he feel bad if you got rid of him because of this? Like maybe they were playing and he was afraid to say so or in shock? I'm not saying he was lying, so don't take it that way. Although I'm rather surprised at how well my 3yrold can lie about getting into snacks and stuff (even takes care of the plate after eating all the cookies). Maybe shocked that the dog bit him and only thing that came to mind was "I didn't do anything Dad!!!" Like my daughter doesn't realize she stepped on the dog so of course she freaks out when the dog suddenly yelps and barks.
     
  13. Aug 5, 2008 at 6:59 AM
    #53
    nd

    nd Radical Town. It's a hell of a place!

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    sorry to hear about you're son, just be glad the damage wasn't worse. unfortunately you're right, the dog does have to go. chances are it will never happen again but i doubt you'll ever trust him to be alone with you're young children or anyone elses. If i were you i would look for a good home for him. if he were a bad tempered dog i'd say put him down, but you say he's a good dog so its a shame to put down a good animal. maybe find someone without kids or something. definately get rid of him, but put him down only as a last resort. just my .02 cents
     
  14. Aug 5, 2008 at 7:21 AM
    #54
    klown

    klown Tacoma World Ring Leader

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    I agree, dog's have instincts. The dog mistakingly felt he was being threatened. The dog realized he f**Ked up and only bit the boy 1 time. The dog knew it was wrong, otherwise he would have kept biting. I would supervise the boy with the dog at least until the boy is capable enough of defending himself.

    Dog's have bad days too, some days they are particular touchy.

    I'm sure if you've never seen this dog do this before, then the kid did something to provoke the dog. The boy probably didn't even realize what he did to provoke the dog. I hope everything works out.
     
  15. Aug 5, 2008 at 1:19 PM
    #55
    Afwrestler1986

    Afwrestler1986 Well-Known Member

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    Ok, let me start out by saying I am glad your son is ok and not seriously injured. Now people are comparing cats to dogs, people to animals.......whatever. I hate cats and yes i would put one down for looking at me wrong. I have a dog that I have had since he was about 6 weeks old, I found him wandering down a back road. I took him home and he was not a bad pup until he got used to his surroundings then he became agressive. He bit me damn hard on my hand one day and I looked him dead in the eye until he looked away and I then whooped his ass until he rolled onto his back. I then stopped and put him in his kennel for three days only letting him out to use the bathroom and eat and then it was right back to the kennel. I had to establish dominance. He is now about 9 months old and is very aware that I am the dominant male in the household. I moved out of my house and into my friend's house where he had another dog and two young kids. This change in enviroment did not affect him. although he would not listen to anybody but me. :D
    He screwed up when he bit your boy and he knew it after he did it. I am not going to say one way or the other on what to do with him. If my dog snaps at me and gets me then ok, but if he bites me or anyone else.......as much as i hate to say it.......I would take him outback and end him for it. :( I know you have a tough decision ahead, but maybe a good ass whoop'n would help him. It worked wonders for me, and my dog. Good Luck man.
     
  16. Aug 5, 2008 at 1:32 PM
    #56
    Hotdog

    Hotdog My hair is all natural Moderator

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    I'm sorry to hear about your son and your dog. I think that you're right about getting rid of the dog.

    For the folks that say the dog is part of your family, I have this question for them. If your dog required a $40,000 surgery, would you do it? If your son required a $40,000 surgery, would you do it?
     
  17. Aug 5, 2008 at 1:53 PM
    #57
    piercedtiger

    piercedtiger Devout Atheist

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    Honestly, I don't have the money for either so.....
     
  18. Aug 5, 2008 at 1:59 PM
    #58
    joedirt

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    My parents are spending some serious coin right now on their dog, which has cancer, so yeah, I think they would spend 40k if they had too.

    I have a cat that's been a part of our family for the last 10 years or so. A shelter cat, one that somebody didn't want. Had some problems in the beginning with peeing on the carpet, even bit me on the arm good enough to require stitches. Over time, thru losses and additions, he has become one of the most loyal animals we've ever had. Takes everything in stride, even when our daughter grabs a handful of fur and pulls. I think we would spend serious money for something affecting him if we had too, I think we've spent 3000.00 on him in regards to removing cancerous skin cells over the last 5 years. To us, it's worth it.
     
  19. Aug 5, 2008 at 2:23 PM
    #59
    Hotdog

    Hotdog My hair is all natural Moderator

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    my point is, there is a different max dollar amount that you would/could spend on your dog vs. your child.
     
  20. Aug 5, 2008 at 2:30 PM
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    joedirt

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    To people with no children, pets are a substitute.
     
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