The LED SAE J583 Fog Pod & Fog Light Review

Very true with the light intensity gradient. This is very challenging on vehicles with headlights or fog lights mounted low to the ground that makes the foreground easily wash out your distance vision, hence foreground limiters on projectors.

I am very interested to see what @Yoshi I has to say and what his inputs are. I am always excited when engineers get involved with discussions like this, I love learning more subjects I am deeply interested in.

 

Hello Everyone, nice to meet you. I am Yoshi Ishida, designer of Morimoto 4 Banger. Very passionate discussion going on here, and seeing some interest in how 4 Banger stands in J583 fog category, I thought it is best for me to jump in to share some of further in depth.
I hope I can provide information or answers to questions some may have.

Allow me to clear up some of recent comments questions, and if anyone has more questions, feel free to ask me anytime.

1. Product concept
4 Banger Wide is off-road intended lamp. Which is " OK " to use on the road as SAE F fog( basic classic F function only) The reason I did not give name of "Fog" lamp was simply I didn't make this lamp as fog lamp. It's more like a crossover coverage product, if I were to make actual fog lamp optics, it will be much different, more suitable for fog of course.
I will explain the reason of vertically asymmetrical beam composure of this product.
It's simple lamp that feature classic TIR lens with linear diffuser. Some may notice small square diffuser vertical angle variation section in each TIR optics center. This is the section making lower angle spread.
Each emitter is also offset from optical center of TIR lens intentionally to shift around the hot spot bleed shift to lower angle to gain bit better gradient control.

Center square section of each TIR optics
Classic TIR optics has reflector (= outer larger TIR surface) and center inverted aspheric lens section. It varies how TIR parameter set, but generally speaking, Outer segment create more crisp "emission surface shaped" focus. And center area get slightly loose circular focused beam. Because so close to emitter, and also smaller in diameter, not efficient collimator.
This center section circular beam can bleed over upper gradient line of square focused beam = bleed over cutoff line in this case.
Therefor, I gave that center circular shaped beam angled slightly lower than outer segment beam to gain higher gradient control. This gives additional lower angle spread combined with off set emission center relative to optical center.

TIR base beam composition and exit surface linear diffuser composition is explained here.





2. CalCoast report posted by Matt K
This report was not to show off singular intensity competition. To be honest, 4 Banger or SS3 Max like massive peak intensity is pointless if lamp were to be used as on road usage fog lamp.
Report was for us to verify it is OK to use on the road, and to obtain third party validation, easier to compare performance on same regulated platform, since we decided to enter J583 category.
Very important terms are explained in report, but J583 F function have 2 criteria, one is gradient, and the other is actual photometric table.
For those who are not familiar with term "gradient", it is simply can be called " cut off line" In other word, highest contrast borderline between illuminated edge of beam top. 4 Banger had to go through some optical tweak mentioned above.
Olson HXB output very high volume, plain TIR was not sufficient to obtain proper gradient. I barely made it, basically. Chip size is still too big, available TIR size is limited.

How J583 F function test work is, first line scan to detect highest gradient angle ( cut off line ) and align this cut off line 0.75 degree down from horizontal line. If scan cannot detect defined enough gradient max, then it considered as "aim is not aim-able"
The lamps didn't show gradient criteria passed, they were aimed in the way so it won't cause glare.

3. Color temp related
Selected Oslon HXB color group is ebzB46 or fcbB46, It can be in between 5400K~6200K @6A up to 800K variation can be expected.
In CalCoast measurement,
SS3 Max was 5705K
SS3 Max with backlight was 5951K
4 Banger HXB was 5697K
Beam edge shows more blueish color, @crashnburn80 explained, shorter wavelength receive greater refraction curve, far outer angle contains relatively higher shorter wave length ray group.

4. Aiming
Important note. J583 F function define proper aim as peak gradient to be 0.75D below Horizontal line = this is equivalent to 4" down at 25' of distance. But what need to be 4" below H line is very upper end of beam cutoff line. Aiming lamp 0.75D down does not satisfy proper aim.
4Banger, SS3 max, they both need to be aimed down as much as 4.3~4.5 degree downward. 4 Banger has vehicle specific brackets, basically must be aimed all the way down. Not sure about aiming range of SS3 pod mount bracket, but make aimed low enough to prevent glare.
If to use beam center (peak spot aiming reference) downgrade amount, based on lamp is set at straight 0 degree aim, proper aim can be described as peak spot to be aimed down by 23.6" down at 25' distance
In this method, SS3 Pro will be out of question as SAE F fog, no gradient definition, can't aimed by cut off, using beam center peak spot method require it to be aimed down 30.5" down at 25' distance to prevent glare. At this level of low aim, required 3D line intensity went too low ( this was the reason of SAE F table fail item)


5. Width impression
This need to be discussed in 2 different level. One is On road usage as SAE F fog, the other is as off-road higher aimed application.
At SAE F defined aiming scenario, this is how road illuminance impression will look like. (Lamp aim 4B HXB 0.75D SS3 Max 1D per CalCoast report)



Immediate road edge illuminance point is 3D 15L/R
Here is wall to road projection interpretation chart.
Since high power lamp like 4B or SS3 max had to be aimed steeply low, peak intensity actually not doing anything. As basic F function fog, what carries the most importance is this 3D 15R/L points.
33R/L area will give greater width impression, if you swing your view to look the side SS3 has island hotspot at 25R/L range this covers that far outer angle illuminance.




When lamp is aimed at J583 F function definition, here is expected driver view

4B HXB


SS3 max


As on road application F fog, benefit of SS3 max's far outer angle is not much of visible, since beam must be aimed very low.
However, as off road application

4B HXB A-pillar application 1.2m height -3 degree aim


SS3 Max same aim


This is where SS3 max full width impression shines.
4B HXB, I gave lower angle fill ( this was byproduct of attempt of retain higher gradient control actually)


Very important notes, make sure to aim 4B HXB or SS3 Max as low as possible. I see nearly all of the beam photo of users showing lamp aimed way too high.
Even though, many product claimed as SAE F, report showed not all of them is that case. Report was made to assure 4B is at least OK to use as F function.


If anyone has any optical detail questions, curiosity, how to comprehend photometric table, feel free to ask me anytime.
I try my best to explain one by one.

 

@Yoshi I, that is a very good description and clears up some confusion, at least for me. The beam pattern makes more sense knowing that the HXB was not originally intended as an on road use fog light like many online seller descriptions or videos lead me to believe, that's not your fault all. The fact that it happens to fall into the specs of J583 seems to be somewhat of an unintended bonus for Morimoto.

I'd be curious what kind of crazy lights you or @Diode Dynamics could come up with for an optimized, no holds barred on-road use fog light without any financial restrictions or size restrictions. Almost like an engineers gone wild episode. HAHA I'm sure you guys are working on something or have personally built something wild that never got released for various reasons. I think it's cool to see what's possible.

 

It is more like Off-road lamp that is also capable of at least to be basic F function kind of development path it took. Since this kind of off-road lamp were popular being used as fog. Certainly had intention to satisfy basic F function. What I meant was, to me, F function is very basic old fog function, for me to say " here is our new fog lamp" I will make high performance F3 targeted fog lamp.
It was a pilot project to jump into this off-road LED pod market, many targeted for fog usage, therefore, while primary is a off-road lamp, I made sure to satisfy F to be in same competition field.
So many marketing video wasn't misleading, I still intended to make lamp that is OK for F function.

Singular intensity war was not definitely my intention, but it was just a market pressure. It will take long time to achieve general understanding intensity by itself has zero weight, unless it is positioned properly, coordinated with other angle points properly. But unfortunately, many review simply take lux measurement, and that number start walking by itself to establish meaningless reference number to compare products.

Diode just released Elite, those are much more On-road fog application targeted actual fog lamp. It has much superior control over any SS3.
Don't make mistake try compare peak intensity only against SS3 Sport or max etc. Those carry completely different optical refinement. Higher gradient ( sharper cutoff) fog like that can have peak intensity much closer to cut-off line, allows to aim higher with refinement. It can aid to illuminate distance immediate road edge, blends better with low beam. When properly aimed, you likely will see more illumination coverage impression from elite, more than SS3 "as properly aimed" fog lamp usage.
And 3.5D 22R/L 4.5D 35R/L will be more controlled with F3 which benefit far outer angle illuminance.

Yes, modern fog intended fog lamp is in my queue, I research end-user feedback and continue to come up future products.
While it is not hard to make F3 fog, my effort also must expand to provide enough information to general public to be able to understand philosophy behind.
I am still concern about, if I make proper fog, as optical engineer stand point, may not get proper acknowledgement, simply because it may not have " what the max lux" " what's the max beam spread" answers in the way it had been commonly used, but not always full depth understanding chance.

When we introduce future product, I make sure share as much technical information as possible, so user can enjoy, and understand what went thought in process, and experience quality lighting.

If anyone has questions about 4 Banger, and general knowledge about optical basic, photometry questions etc, feel free to ask me.
I myself enjoy studying and share the experiences.

 

@Yoshi I thanks for answering the question on the raised optic design at the center of the TIR on the 4bangers. That one had me curious.

 

I for one am curious how to read gradient plots or other types of measurements used light testing/development in a more simplified and easier to understand way. For instance when you or others in the know discuss "3.5d 22R/L 4.5D 35R/L", I don't comprehend what that means. I am sure I can figure it out through hours of research, but to see it simplified from the experts would be great. I don't know how many other people would like to know this type of data? The downside is that gradient plots are often not always published so it's somewhat not useful at the same time.

I am curious how the DD Elite series Fog Lights perform compared to the SS3 variants in the real world, but I don't know that I'll be running out there to replace my SS3's I currently have anytime soon. One concern I always have with any LED forward lighting is the ability to melt snow/ice as I live in a northern climate. Which the SS3 Pro/Max does well and appears the HXB will do the same, however I have not read anything about the DD Elite's ability to do the same yet.

 

They're referencing standardized test points in SAE/ECE testing. See my post, #37/page 2 in the J581/Driving Light thread for an example. US/ECE regs don't really define a particular "beam pattern" or "cutoff" like many people assume. You see the emphasis on "yeah, but it has a hard/good cutoff" argument in the retrofit world. It's assumed by most that a good cutoff means a good lamp/good performing light, good glare control for oncoming drivers, etc but there's way more to it than that.

Anyway, back to the test points, most of the regs have multiple test points at a set distance, and set angle left/right/up/down from the lamp when its mounted at a certain height aimed dead on to the horizon. These points allow for apples-to-apples comparisons for vastly different lamps, without subjectivity/perception coming into play.

Very cool responses from morimoto and their engineer Yoshi. Based on Crash's test and the other responses it makes a lot more sense that the 4banger HXB is more offroad use oriented, with some ability to comply for road use if correctly mounted/aimed/wired, than as a 100% direct competitor to other fogs.

 

The units are photometric test points. 3.5 degrees down, 22 degrees Right and 22 degrees Left.



As @memario1214 mentioned the Elites will be insufficient to melt snow. The power isn't high enough to generate sufficient heat, and the yellow color filtration isn't taking place on the outer lens to warm the lens.

 

That's kind of what I was thinking as well. With the optic behind the outside lens it makes sense that they would not create enough heat on the lens to keep snow and ice from building up.

I hear ya on the retrofit crowd focusing on hard cutoff lines. It looks cool when behind a car or on a wall, but many don't consider the complete lack lighting above the sharp cutoff. While it is attractive, it is very distracting also.

I'll have to refer back to post #37, thank you!

Thank you very much!! This plot makes a lot more sense to what is referred to. I haven't been able to research much, but this is the first plot that I have seen blank and readable. The additional notes on how to read the values given is a big plus!!

Question, are the blue lines considered optimal?

 

About Gradient

This criteria is essential for Low beam, fog lamp, those which need defined cutoff line to assed proper aiming of the lamp, to be able to run photometric test. Without defined enough gradient, photometric test cannot be run. Because no aiming reference. SAE F/ F3, R19 Class F3 (ECE fog) , all require gradient to be evaluated, then lamp can be aimed according to photometric table to run photometric test.
Without passing gradient criteria, it considered lamp is NOT aim-able by system.

What is gradient

In short word, cut off line sharpness.

See below images, two type of fog lamp, one is reflector based, not so sharp cut off and the other is projector/aspheric torus optics fog with sharper cutoff.
You can see "visual level" cutoff s sharpness difference.
In iso candela plot, log scale, imagine this as topographic map. Higher the candela as higher elevation for example. Where steep hill, or drop, contour line intervals is smaller. Larger interval=gentle slope.
Gradient log scale shows " steepness" = smaller the contour line intervals, highlighted as higher gradient. **this peak is not same as candela peak, this is value of "sharpness"
Gradient mapping shows, basically cross section of gradient log plot.

In J583 F table, lamp shall be aimed so peak gradient ( the peak of gradient map) to be 0.75D ( 0.75 degree below horizontal line) This 0.75D adjust is 4" drop at 25'. so to aim fog lamp properly, cut-off line must be 4" below lamp center height.
Then, F table photometric table will be tested to see if it satisfy criteria or not.


These report is telling left 3 satisfy enough definition for system to determine cutoff line. Those which failed considered cut off line was not defined enough to aim the lamp.
This is required criteria of J583, so by failing this essentially means NOT SAE F function.

I cant believe how Baja or SS3 Pro claim that SAE F fog to be honest. Baja was the worst, beyond salvageable level.
SS3 Pro also was very loose, to prevent glare, lamp must be kept aim low, as low as it takes to prevent glare, as a result, brighter spot became too low in angle, result in required beam center intensity went below minimum requirement.
Basically, what test says was, need to aim lamp 5.6 degree down (=30.5' drop at 25') Unless it is universal U bracket mount, I don't think it can be aimed that low. I am certain most is causing severe glare, and user think great illuminance is likely seeing the glare.
I admire ample volume of illumination as off-road lamp though.

4 banger HXB gradient is in danger zone, barely made it kind of score. I didn't know 1/1000 digit can be rounded off, but that what CalCoast gave to me. So I am following that.
It just too powerful emitter in such small lamp optics, difficult to regulate cutoff definition with classic TIR optics. But TIR optics utilize light source efficiency in terms of output volume, so I proceed with TIR lens based optics. Since it was primary off-road lamp.
It's just OK to use as fog per J583, certainly not going to glare at specified aim. but also, not ideal at all to me. Too bright, border line gradient.
same as SS3 max, had to be aimed steeply low, peak intensity hit ground too near, wont be in driver view range.
Even thought,, I supposed to be in the position to promote my creation,, but I must say, I would go with NCS, if to use on road.
There is marketing effort must be made relative to completion market, so manufacture will put spot light where shines, make difficult to spot what is the weak point, which is normal and fine.
But I am fortunate, that team allow me to speak up my own evaluation, and focus on creation and my data study.
I continue to provide any study finding or new product detailed information which I believe benefit end user understanding.

This was one of the reason HXB's SAE mention got delayed. My internal conflict, shall we say SAE F? As a result, it was OK. And I did designed to target basic F. But still I would not call that as proper fog lamp. But also, market seems to be just self claim, some thing like Baja Squadron, it was more than obvious to trained eye, no way that is SAE F function fog. But still market accept so just because no one validated, or information was not sufficiently provided.
After long internal discussion, let's at least get additional third party validation for us to say OK to use on road, I hope that excuse delay of the notification of SAE mention.

NCS has marginal, but reasonable headroom in gradient criteria, and not so modest, but still easier output than HXB. This evaluation is just based on my personal opinion though.
Rigid D series was solid. confidently, solidly no question, satisfied criteria. You can see how sharp their cutoff is, this is what higher gradient value means.


SS3 max, max with backlight can be aimed about same amount as HXB and satisfy photometric table itself. it won't cause glare limit exceed.
SS3 Sport, it uses ZES, which has same vertical dimension as HXB emitter emission surface. Gradient rate is logically similar to max, but with less output volume, can be aimed slightly higher and won't cause glare.

I hope this enlighten some of aspect hasn't discussed much, and gives new perspective what is actually required quality, aiming, how wall view impression interpreted to road illumination.

 

Blue lines refer to minimum output requirements.

 

Only here (Tacoma World) can we have intelligent, in-depth technical discussion about lighting. It is appreciated. Other sites? Let's see, a fog light is yellow, right?

 

Don't forget about the candlepower forum, so 2 places. Also you're really giving too much credit to some of the others, like any of them with 4x4truckleds there.

 

It can be another expensive forum. Speaking of expensive I have no idea how this got here while my wife was out of town

 

CPF is a great forum for credible info. I often read over there when researching something lighting related.

 

Maybe the UPS guy dropped it off?

 

Indeed he did.