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The SAE J581 Aux High Beam Thread

Discussion in 'Lighting' started by crashnburn80, Nov 28, 2020.

  1. Dec 4, 2020 at 12:41 PM
    #61
    Toy_Runner

    Toy_Runner Well-Known Member

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    Hot damn, that Max w/driving optic is nuts. Whats also interesting is that theres what appears to be a "V" shaped intensity dip at the top-center of the beam, and a v-shaped extension of the beam at the bottom. This doesn't seem to be the case with the same optic in either the Sport (tight central hotspot, very even outer corona) or the Pro (larger overall pattern, less noticable intensity variance between the central hotspot and the corona). Probably adds a nicer transition from the near field to the hotspot down the road.

    I think DD has an interestimg upgrade on their hands if they offered their bars with the same CULPM1 chip the Max uses (and bump that drive current up, it's a tough LED).
     
  2. Dec 4, 2020 at 12:49 PM
    #62
    ardrummer292

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    Following to see if a verdict is reached on Cebie 9” vs. KC Gravity 6”. @crashnburn80, I definitely see what you mean about the pattern width and how that could affect usability.
     
  3. Dec 4, 2020 at 3:04 PM
    #63
    skierd

    skierd Well-Known Member

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    I didn’t know about the Osram Super Brights! For about $20 shipped from Power Bulbs they’re worth trying, so now I’ve got a set on the way.
     
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  4. Dec 4, 2020 at 3:34 PM
    #64
    crashnburn80

    crashnburn80 [OP] Vehicle Design Engineer

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    I don't recall the V effect on the bottom of the pattern quite as prominent in person as the photo. It was actually a challenging photo to take as the intensity is so high, the camera really wants to wash out the pattern. Agreed about the light distribution for near field vs the distance projected hot spot.

    It would an awesome update on their light bars, but the chips are expensive. The chips in the Max cost more than the Sport SS3s. So maybe they could offer the standard Stage bar and the Max Stage bar.

    I'm not sure there is necessarily a clear winner in this case. The light patterns are different. The Cebies will give you a larger wider pattern, where as the KCs will give you a smaller pattern but project further, with 46% higher output intensity. Size may be a consideration too as in many cases it may be challenging to mount a 9" light and in hot environments you should also consider airflow to the radiator. All things to consider in choosing the right light for your setup.

    I'd be curious on your thoughts of them vs the Hellas once you get them in.
     
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  5. Dec 4, 2020 at 3:39 PM
    #65
    Toy_Runner

    Toy_Runner Well-Known Member

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    Another thing to keep in mind is that the LED Cibie Super Oscar is offered in two outputs. Mine is the lower output 75,000 cd model, there is another which is 130,000cd which puts in on par with the KC lamps Crash was able to compare it to.

    I purchased my pair of Cibies in 2017, and at the time these were the only ones I could find from a US vendor.
     
  6. Dec 4, 2020 at 3:45 PM
    #66
    ardrummer292

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    I’ll take a look around and see if I can find those. Do you have a part number for them in SAE pattern?

    @crashnburn80, totally understand that declaring a “winner” between the two isn’t really realistic. I’m starting to lean more towards Cebie, since the wider pattern will make them more effective “deer spotters” than the KC Pro6. I imagine the Cebies would fit on my ARB bumper; I have a touch over 11” to work with, from mounting surface to the bottom of the bar.
     
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  7. Dec 4, 2020 at 3:52 PM
    #67
    crashnburn80

    crashnburn80 [OP] Vehicle Design Engineer

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    For use in aid to spotting dear, I would definitely agree that the Cebies are a better lamp for that purpose. Of course if you can find the 130,000cd Cibie model, you can have the best of both. :thumbsup:
     
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  8. Dec 4, 2020 at 3:54 PM
    #68
    ardrummer292

    ardrummer292 Resisting G.A.S.

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    Agreed. Hopefully @Toy_Runner can locate a part number so I know exactly what to get.
     
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  9. Dec 4, 2020 at 3:56 PM
    #69
    Toy_Runner

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    Another thing to keep in mind is that the LED Cibie Super Oscar is offered in two outputs. Mine is the lower output 75,000 cd model, there is another which is 130,000cd which puts in on par with the KC lamps Crash was able to compare it to.

    I purchased my pair of Cibies in 2017, and at the time these were the only ones I could find from a US vendor.
    Cibie's part # for mine is 45309, part # for the wide beam/higher output version is 45315 according to their catalog. Not a lot of vendors from what I can see with a quick google (and several ebay listings with stock photos of the 45309 listed as the higher putout version, so be careful). Might be best to shoot an email to Daniel Stern over at his website.
     
  10. Dec 4, 2020 at 4:53 PM
    #70
    skierd

    skierd Well-Known Member

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    upload_2020-12-4_15-46-26.jpg

    One fun thing about moose, they’re tall enough that they’re eyes don’t reflect in headlights, because they’re over the cutoff...
     
  11. Dec 4, 2020 at 5:11 PM
    #71
    ardrummer292

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    I sent an email to Daniel Stern. In the meantime, does your Cibie catalog say anything about P/N 45312? It appears to be the black housing version of P/N 45315, which is listed as having a “paintable” housing.

    https://www.larkspeed.com/index.pl?p=45312&a=i

    https://www.larkspeed.com/index.pl?p=45315&a=i
     
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  12. Dec 4, 2020 at 5:21 PM
    #72
    Toy_Runner

    Toy_Runner Well-Known Member

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    Here's the page from it with the p/n's for all three sizes.

    Screenshot_20201204-172031_OneDrive.jpg
     
  13. Dec 5, 2020 at 3:34 AM
    #73
    ardrummer292

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    That’s very handy, thank you. I am somewhat concerned that the “wide beam” Cibie variants (P/Ns 45312 through 45315) aren’t SAE compliant patterns, where the lower power models (P/Ns 45308 through 45311) are. Do you have any documentation on any of the lights that advertises SAE compliance? @crashnburn80, you might be able to help here as well.

    @crashnburn80, what do you think of the color temperature of the Cibie lights? The advertised 6000K/actual 5600K temperature seems a little high, especially if trying to minimize eye strain.

    Also, does anyone know what a “position lamp” is? I would assume it serves the same function as a side marker light, but I’m not sure how that would be integrated in the Cibie models that offer it (P/Ns 45316 through 45319). It looks like there might be a few LEDs embedded in the horizontal cross-bar of some of the lights, but I’m honestly just guessing.

    CBC969E0-B9CC-40F9-A79D-37B80B0E8CCA.jpg
     
  14. Dec 5, 2020 at 1:40 PM
    #74
    Toy_Runner

    Toy_Runner Well-Known Member

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    @ardrummer292

    I'm not sure that these are sae compliant lamps. They are E-marked with a standard that I believe is similar to J581. I'm going to go ahead and email Dan Stern for some clarifications about this.

    I'm less worried about the wide beams not being SAE compliant. The KC Gravity Pro6 is offered in an SAE/ECE driving beam and claims 2,300 lumen output, 131,000cd intensity compared to the 1,300lumen 125,000(I mis-stated previously 130k)cd. JW Speaker has also offered their TS4000 driving lamps which are in the 130k+cd range for several years.

    I went looking specifically for the Cibie LED lamps because of previous experience with Cibie Products. I had a set of halogen super oscars on my first vehicle (which were destroyed when I totaled it, but great lamps) and I had a set of Charlie 35's in driving beam on my '00XJ which were great lamps.

    I like immensely the beam pattern of my led oscars, but I don't honestly like the color temp (I've been running various combinations of yellow/selective yellow headlights for years). I have thought repeatedly over the past several years of cracking them open and replacing the LED's with neutral-white or warm-white spectrum LEDs. They appear to use Cree XM-L's, and there are several new generations of XM-L which offer both greater efficiency and better tints. So even going to a slightly lower binned LED of the same format should not have much of an effect on overall beam pattern or output. But while I'd feel confident swapping the LED, I hesitate to crack open these lamps and not be able to get them sealed back up effectively.

    Thay's also part of the reason I asked Crash for emitter pics of those valeo/cibie/piaa lamps he tested. That pcb/chip arrangement and how the lamp is (probably) assembled would make it an easier candidate for a swap to neutral white or high color rendering LEDs with a similar level of efficiency.

    Unlike trying to swap an HID or LED retrofit bulb into a halogen lamp, playing with "tuning" and focus, lamps like these use standardized components that could be swapped and upgraded over time (if legality is ignored). Two different LEDs that have the same emission pattern, chip die height, and size format can be easily swapped with (arguably) no difference in the end result.

    I believe those Position Lamps are meant to be wired to a DRL circuit, but that's speculation on my end.

    ---
    My comments about LED swaps should not be taken as an endorsement of the idea. I view it similarly to using different high performance or high output bulbs, or swapping bulb types that are otherwise optically/electrically compatible, but whose legality is in question. As I stated previously I also have fewer qualms about auxiliary lighting intended for use solely with a vehicles highbeams being modified, than other lighting modifications to low beam and/or fog lamps, as their potential for abuse should be minimized.
     
  15. Dec 5, 2020 at 9:46 PM
    #75
    crashnburn80

    crashnburn80 [OP] Vehicle Design Engineer

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    While I am a fan of KC's gravity series products, I do question their specs as I pointed out in post #3901 here. Interestingly if you took my measurements the KC Pro6 was 46% higher in intensity than the Cibie 75,000cd lights, based on Cibie's candela numbers that should put the Pro6 closer to 110,000cd. My testing certainly isn't perfect, but I'm not using cheap equipment either. And when compared to using the commercial professional equipment as Diode Dynamics and Osram, my numbers are within 4.7%. Using the test data in the post I linked above, I do think their specs are inflated.

    Personally I strongly dislike 6000k lights. Realistically though the difference between 5168k (KC) and 5611k (Cibie) isn't that great.

    However in producing an LED lamp, the manufacture chooses the bin criteria of the LEDs. That is to say they select a color temperature and the control on how strict that color temp is adhered to is the binning. Loose binning can lead to a wider variety of color temp within the production of the same lamp on the same assembly line but also lower cost. Tight binning will give a very repeatable product that is more precise in color, at a higher cost.

    As an example, here is the Rigid 360 fog prototypes, these LEDs were spec'd as the same color. Clearly they are not. Afterwards Rigid made changes to their supplier to tighten he binning (which increases cost) so make sure the LEDs were closer to spec. In the same way the Cibie lights could possibly run higher in color temp as 5600k seems pretty low for a 6000k spec'd lamp, unless the LED binning was relatively loose.

    [​IMG]
     
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  16. Dec 5, 2020 at 10:28 PM
    #76
    Toy_Runner

    Toy_Runner Well-Known Member

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    Got a Very quick response from Mr. Stern in reference to my cibies/other E-marked lamps.

    "Quote:

    I was hoping for some clarification/something I
    > can reference that shows that they are compliant with some sort of
    > equivalent standard to SAE J581.

    Those markings you just described are the indicia that these lamps
    comply with the international equivalent of SAE J581, which is UN
    Regulation 112.

    > I've been asked at different times by
    > various LE about their legality,

    The large majority of such questions are without basis in statute; most
    states do not have an explicit requirement that auxiliary lamps be
    certified as meeting any particular SAE standard, or SAE standards in
    general.

    /Quote"

    So... based on that, I suppose I need to follow up and ask if lamps that are Not UNreg112/SAEJ581 compliant are then legal on a state-by-state basis. I suppose that opens up a lot of questions and potential for hassle by local LE if you can't cite a state reg one way or another.
     
  17. Dec 5, 2020 at 10:38 PM
    #77
    skierd

    skierd Well-Known Member

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    Since the kids fell asleep in the backseat on the way home tonight, I did a little beam pattern comparison. Shot with an iPhone 11 Pro Max from the drivers seat.

    Fogs only (TRD OR with stock h11’s)
    EF2DADF0-4ADE-43B4-AB72-E2A92EB1F450.jpg

    H9 low beams, aimed up approximately 5/8” from stock (and still in Toyota’s published specs) with fogs
    9EE4C104-7478-4196-92B3-334B6382F7E7.jpg

    Hella 700ff with 100w hella bulbs only, headlights and high beams covered.
    CB58B9F8-3CD8-4A2F-A390-4EB564FAEBEC.jpg

    Hella and high beams.
    DA1FC3E7-F4E9-4A9C-9117-AFC94E6BBC08.jpg

    Why am I posting this? I think people would benefit from seeing how these lights shine down the road. The stock high beams are very good and shine quite a bit wider than the Hellas, and the Hellas add considerable distance down range in the lane of travel. You can see the beam width of roughly 2.5 lanes at 100 yards (roughly the spruce trees at the edge of the road). For reference the small dot at the end of the road is an excavator and is roughly 400 yards away. In person the low beams don’t really shine on it, and the Hellas put considerable light on it.

    Don’t feel like you need to add a ton of lights to the truck for a massive improvement!

    Regarding light color temp, having tried both selective yellow fog bulbs and 4300k HIDs in my low beam, I’ve found that for me having lights of drastically different color temp ranges distracting. I prefer having all of the light sources blend together more or less seamlessly. I think a 5000k or 6000k driving light would drive me nuts...
     
    Last edited: Dec 5, 2020
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  18. Dec 5, 2020 at 10:44 PM
    #78
    crashnburn80

    crashnburn80 [OP] Vehicle Design Engineer

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    @skierd An excellent example of the performance value in a quality halogen lamp. There is no need to spend significant amounts on an LED lamp to achieve outstanding driving light performance.
     
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  19. Dec 6, 2020 at 11:23 AM
    #79
    skierd

    skierd Well-Known Member

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    If I had OEM LED headlights I’d happily run any of the mentioned LED options. Particularly the DD SS3 Max spots. I’m running halogen driving lights as much for their matching color temperature as their price to performance ratio.
     
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  20. Dec 6, 2020 at 8:14 PM
    #80
    Aws123

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    So i think this came out pretty decent. Was kinda a pain in the ass. Solid as a rock though and fully adjustable. No vibration while driving either. I did the lens swap for that 4000k color. Way better than the light bar with the clear lens at 6000k. Having the lights up at headlight height work way better than in the bumper too.
    Used some metal angle stock, welded it up and bolted it where i needed adjustments. Overall i would say it was worth the time and money.

    20201206_215936.jpg
    20201206_220022.jpg
    20201206_220114.jpg
     
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