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Transmission 5 Speed automatic write up with pics for second gen 4 liter trucks

Discussion in 'Technical Chat' started by gearcruncher, Aug 7, 2013.

  1. Jan 5, 2014 at 12:17 AM
    #21
    gearcruncher

    gearcruncher [OP] Well-Known Member

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    Type WS ( World standard ) fluid is considered a highly friction modified fluid .
    Toyota says its designed for longevity and good for 100,000 miles but service specs according to Aisn Warner who make the transmission use 30,000 miles for the first fluid replacement and 25,000 under severe use
    Ask yourself what transmissions require this specific fluid ????? and its only Toyota .

    Toyota calls WS fluid a lifetime fluid and doesnt need to be checked .Its not a lifetime fluid . No fluid is lifetime . The only reason they called World Standard transmission fluid a lifetime fluid good for 100K was to get away from enviromental tax fees . Other manufacturers recommend changing their fluid much sooner and have to pay an enviromental fee for every vehicle they sell to the public . Sell a million cars and trucks and the enviromental fees add up quick . Toyota comes up with a lifetime fluid that is good for 100k and saves millions . They did not create a quality transmission fluid , they simply worded it to save enviromental fees . WS is no better than anything you get off the shelf in Walmart in fact even at Walmart you can purchase better quality transmission fluid than WS . Why did Toyota recently decide to change their transmission fluid replacement from 100k down to 60k ? .....far too many warranty issues
    The identical clutching , electronic solenoids and lock up torqe converter are used in the A 340E from the early 90,s .
    This transmission was released in 2005 with a WS requirement . WS is " NOT " synthetic as advetrised by Toyota . Its a simple blend made in Japan http://www.mitasuoil.com/en/fluid and then there are the North American versions of the fluid .
    The quart containers are marked on the bottom with a "CCC" logo, which stands for Consolidated Container Corporation , hoping for a "WPP" that would have been a dead giveaway for Warren or another of the common packaging logos .



    The first is by ExxonMobil and is for "TOYOTA WS ATF JWS 3324." Here is a copy of the MSDS
    ExxonMobil WS ATF MSDS

    The second is by Esso/Imperial Oil of Canada, for "3324 WS ATF" and is linked below:
    Esso/Imperial Oil WS ATF MSDS

    Few things are interesting:

    1) The quart bottles are marked "Made in the USA from domestic and imported components." Maybe Toyota is sourcing WS from both places and bottling it in the USA as being "made" in the USA with domestic and foreign components. Even if the product inside were 100% Canadian, the bottle is still made in the USA and it's bottled in the USA.

    2) WS ATD is known also by "JWS 3324." If you search on JWS3324, you'll also come up with another name/specification, "NWS9638."

    3) If you search on JWS3324, you'll find its German-made JWS3324, by the RAVENOL Corporation. They call it "Automatic-Getriebeцl T-WS Lifetime," which can be viewed at:

    Ravenol JWS3324 ATF

    Ravenol notes that the application is the "Aisin Warner Sequential Automatic Gearbox." The Tundra indeed uses an Aisin Warner AB60E/F transmission, depending on if the truck is 2WD (AB60E) or 4WD (AB60F). No luck finding an MSDS for the Ravenol, probably because it's not imported to the USA. Seems interesting that a German company makes a fluid that seems so similar in name to the Toyota product.

    4) The rumor is that Toyota WS ATF is a synthetic fluid, but no evidence in the MSDS' to support this. With a flash point of 401 deg F (ExxonMobil MSDS) and 347 deg F (Imperial Oil),not sure a synthetic conclusion can be drawn.

    5) The viscosities in the MSDS' match our limited VOA/UOA data here. VOA/UOA's here on WS ATF suggest a hot viscosity of around 6 cSt at 100 deg C. The Imperial Oil data sheet lists a viscosity of 5.45 cSt at 100 deg C. VOA here shows 25 cSt at 40 deg C, and the Imperial Oil MSDS shows 24 cSt at 100 deg C. Interestingly, the ExxonMobil MSDS shows a viscosity of 7.2 cSt at 100 deg C, which seems to differ from the VOA data here on BITOG. (Which, is limited to one VOA. I'm tempted to send Blackstone a sample as another data point.)

    6) The 7.2 cSt number shown in the ExxonMobil MSDS suggest a few possibilities. One, the WS spec may allow some hot viscosity "wiggle room," which may indicate that as long as viscosity is in the ballpark, it doesn't have to be exact. Two, the 7.2 number may be in error. Three, the VOA may be in error. Four, the Imperial Oil data may be in error. Right now, not sure we have enough data to draw a conclusion.
    http://www.kd5byb.net/Tundra/ATF WS MSDS1.pdf

    The WS fluid is nothing special.

    KV 100C just below 6cSt
    BV -40C about 8500cP
    20 hour KRL shear 10% vis loss
    FZG a/8.3/90 9 LS
    Foam
    Seq I 30/0
    Seq II 40/0
    Seq III 20/0
    Seq IV 30/0
    The VM collapses massively under thermal stress.

    With the high copper corrosion from electrical windings , all i suggest is changing the fluid as often as possible . Its not an issue with the copper windings on the solenoids and sensors but the insulation protecting the solenoids and sensors that breaks down .


    I am sorry ladies and gents , but there are far better fluids out there now , directly off the shelf through the aftermarket that superceed the friction modifiers of WS fluid .
    Are you going to void warrantee by using a different fluid ? Toyota techs are not looking for proper fluid when they do work to your transmission . Do you beleive they are going to send a fluid sample away ? I think NOT
    To add : you can use any transmission fluid that is WS compliant and Toyota Can " NOT " void your warranty . Look for WS compliant on the bottle

    Here is a little tip
    Automatic transmission fluid is made to give 100,000 miles of service before oxidation occurs at such a rate that change will be required at normal temperatures.

    Normal fluid temperature in transmission to be 175 deg. F.

    Rate of oxidation to double for each temperature increase of 20 deg F above normal (175 deg F). As oxidation rate doubles, useful life of fluid is cut in half.

    At 175 deg F life is 100,000 miles
    At 195 deg F (20 deg above 175) life is 50k miles
    At 215 life is 25k miles
    At 235 life is 12k
    At 255 life is 6,250
    At 275 life is 3,000
    At 295 life is 1500
    At 315 life is 750

    At temperatures much above 300 deg F the metals in the transmission will tend to warp, twist etc. high temperatures causes the formation of varnish deposits which impair or pre vent transmission operation.

    At a fluid temperature of 415 deg F fluid life is 30 minutes!

    Source: Empire Lubricants Inc.
     
    Last edited: Sep 26, 2014
    GPsevinSixx likes this.
  2. Jan 5, 2014 at 12:27 PM
    #22
    steezinstangl

    steezinstangl Well-Known Member

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    gearcruncher,
    what fluid would you recommend?
     
  3. Jan 6, 2014 at 10:24 AM
    #23
    tacomajim

    tacomajim New Member

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    hey gearchrusher, have any ideas why flex plate has cracked twice did first one at 170,000 now making same noise as before,now at 220,000. don't want to change every 50,000 thanks
     
  4. Jan 6, 2014 at 10:32 AM
    #24
    !TacoTaco!

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  5. Jan 7, 2014 at 5:04 AM
    #25
    gearcruncher

    gearcruncher [OP] Well-Known Member

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    Bell housing run-out . loose bellhousing bolts or any loose bolts for that matter .bad universal joints or lift kit installed without cancelling driveline angles , Missing dowel pins .
    The flywheel is the weakest link .
     
  6. Jan 18, 2014 at 1:56 AM
    #26
    Chandler L.

    Chandler L. Well-Known Member

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    So what fluid do you like instead of the WS? I'd much rather have a high quality synthetic like AMSoil or something of that sort.
     
  7. Jan 18, 2014 at 3:41 AM
    #27
    PMK

    PMK Well-Known Member

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    Thanks for the reply, I too found that WS is not my number one choice, but then again, maybe my use of M1 ATF was not optimum either. Your last paragraph is how I considered the entire situation. PK
     
  8. Jan 30, 2014 at 6:38 AM
    #28
    ls1 prerunner

    ls1 prerunner Well-Known Member

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    Would this shift kit keep my transmission from doing really soft long (slipping? maybe) shift from 4th to 5th? Or would a fluid change help? I also feel like the lock up doesn't always engage either. The truck has 50k miles and about 15k of those with a supercharger.
     
  9. Feb 11, 2014 at 3:40 PM
    #29
    gearcruncher

    gearcruncher [OP] Well-Known Member

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    Do the fluid change when you do the kit . You are due for an oil change if you havnt already done it
    Yes , I would combine the Sonnax zip kit with the shift kit .
    http://www.ebay.com/itm/A750E-F-5-S...Parts_Accessories&hash=item2c7b007016&vxp=mtr

    https://s3.amazonaws.com/sonnax-dev/uploads/unit/valve_body_layout/249/VBL-Toyota-A750EF.pdf
     
  10. Feb 12, 2014 at 2:03 PM
    #30
    ls1 prerunner

    ls1 prerunner Well-Known Member

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    Where would I be able to purchase a Sonnax zip kit? I tried looking for online distributors and most of them said to give them a call, which I haven't done so yet.
     
  11. Feb 12, 2014 at 2:14 PM
    #31
    JRFugitt

    JRFugitt Well-Known Member

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    Great info here!
     
  12. Feb 12, 2014 at 8:23 PM
    #32
    gearcruncher

    gearcruncher [OP] Well-Known Member

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    The Zip kit is fairly new to the market . If you have a trans shop in your town , I am sure they can get one for you .If you do find a zip kit on ebay ,or anywhere on line , post back with a price and a link if you dont mind .
    Sonnax has been around for a long time as an aftermarket transmission parts supplier . Thier products are outstanding .
    Both the Zip kit and the trans-go have great information and easy to follow instructions .
     
    Last edited: May 30, 2014
  13. May 30, 2014 at 2:09 AM
    #33
    gearcruncher

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    Last edited: Jun 29, 2014
  14. Jun 25, 2014 at 6:10 PM
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    pa blaster

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    luk8272

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  16. Sep 26, 2014 at 6:48 AM
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    303tacoma

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  17. Oct 13, 2014 at 10:33 AM
    #37
    EDJY

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    Has anyone actually installed one of these kits?

    Thinking about the transgo. Transmission is shuttering between shifts and is shifting at too low of an RPM on average.
     
  18. Oct 20, 2014 at 2:44 PM
    #38
    pashka612

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    I'm experiencing the same issue, gets hung up in 5th gear and will struggle even at 1300rpm instead of downshifting. I find myself downshifting manually often unless I'm going uphill, somehow transmission will be quicker to downshift then. I've done the drain/fill twice in the last 20k (1 year) but not much difference. I read someone having same issue with their 4th gen 4runner sealed transmission and they added 1 quart of Lukes Transmission Fix and after a couple of weeks the shifting got better for them. Not sure whats my next step to address this irresponsive at times transmission issue.

    Anyone else experiencing this on their 4.0L Auto?
     
  19. Oct 20, 2014 at 4:24 PM
    #39
    gearcruncher

    gearcruncher [OP] Well-Known Member

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    There is the 2012 flash TSB that delays the upshift to 5th gear and fixes a pinging engine . Its rather unfortunate that the TSB doesnt cover older models with the identical transmission . At this point in time , if your throttle body and mass air flow sensor are super clean and fresh spark plugs have been installed , I am afraid there isnt much you can do . Keep in mind that the ecm commands 5th gear at 1300 rpm . With this said ,installing the kit wont help much unless a flash is released by Toyota to compensate for the early application . A suggestion would be to leave the trans in 4th until the tsb becomes available for earlier models . I know a couple members who have the kit and they indicate it makes a huge improvement
     
  20. Oct 20, 2014 at 5:36 PM
    #40
    wake100

    wake100 Well-Known Member

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    Where is the info on this flash?
     
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