What's your Religion?

You're right; a being can be made in a test tube, an example of just how far science has progressed...but I attribute that to scientists using materials already at hand, not creating a being from "nothing"...I'm all for science and reasearch, it's made max strides in helping us in inummerable ways. I was referring to evolution being provable; I believe that things "evolve" and adapt, not that everything came into being haphazardly...as far as physically convincing another concerning my faith, I can't, and won't, of that I'm incapable. I can only share my experience, as I've been in both corners!

 

Cameraperson brings up some interesting points. Obviously we disagree on many of them. As far as the persons that have been involved in molesting children or committing other atrocities, I disagree that these people are Christians. Again, anyone who has actually read what is in the Bible knows that these things are condemned by God. Anyone doing these things (especially to children) and calling themselves a Christian is a huge hypocrite. The point I was trying to make is that there are Christians and then there are "Christians". The proof is in a person's actions. I can call myself "King of the Purple Monkeys" if I want to, but that doesn't make it true unless you see a group of purple monkeys following me around catering to my every whim and calling me "sire". (If you have a bunch of purple monkeys, please know that I am not interested in the job of being "King Monkey")

As for proof of a creator, let's take the house in my original post and put it in the middle of a forest. If you were walking in the forest and suddenly came across it would your first thought be "wow, look at how a house evolved right here in the middle of the forest"? Or would it be "who would have built a house here in the middle of the forest"? We would never doubt there was a builder of the house, how much more so then should there be no doubt that there is a creator of the infinitely more complex universe - right down to the wonderful thing that is a human being.

As to why has God not done something to stop the evil - Simply put he will. In the mean time he is allowing the decision that Adam and Eve made in the garden of Eden to play out. God told them don't eat the fruit from one of the trees in the garden. They decided (with some prompting from Satan) to eat that fruit anyway. There was a lot more at stake here than God saying "Great, I was saving that fruit for some pie". Adam and Eve had challenged God's right to say what was right and what was wrong. God's decision was essentially to say "OK, you want to make these choices for yourselves, go ahead. I will allow you (Adam and his descendants - i.e. us) to make these choices for yourselves. I will make it possible for all of you to choose which way you want to do things and for those that want to do it my way, I will make a way for you to be reconciled to me" (the sacrifice of his son).

Why hasn't God acted by now? I do not claim to know that answer. Some hints can be found in that the Bible tells us that he does not want to destroy anyone, but desires all to repent. Perhaps he wants to apply the scientific method and allow the experiment to play itself out so that when he does act, no one can challenge his results as they will be definitive. At any rate, who is doing all of the evil things that cameraperson mentioned? Isn't it men? Why blame God for it? That would be like having a bad day at work because your boss is a jerk and coming home to tell your wife that you wanted a divorce. That is blaming the wrong person for your unhappiness.

Bottom line is we could on for days, weeks, months or years and both still have the same viewpoint that we do now. To cameraperson I say take care and I truly do wish you all the best.

 

Yes I was commenting that we can create life from a combination of elements. This is how evolution started. Where the elements came from, we do not know, but we can pretty much assume that there was no creator. If there was a creator, how was he created? Who taught him how to create? Was there a creator creator. It just doesn't add up and there is no proof of the concept. There is proof that we can create life by combining elements.

 

I see where where you are coming from; the difference is in our perception of creation/evolution; you view it from theory, mine is biblically based faith, neither physically provable. I believe there is a creator, you don't...I too thought the same as you, but the more I tried to understand, the more confused I became. As you stated, we don't know where the elements came from; I personally believe that God put them all together, but as far as physical proof this occured, and since there is no proof for or against either thought, we're back to square one. I can take stuff and make something here and send it somewhere else to someone I don't know and they will acknowledge the creation, even though they don't know who made it, although they have the option of wondering if it evolved or was created. Basically it is a system of belief, and we believe differently! Having been on both sides of the fence, I can fully understand the questions, especially where did God come from...too much for me to comprhend...

 

x2

Just curious to those that don't believe in God or the Bible....

The prophecy's in the Bible were written before the actual prophecy. SCIENCE shows that the scrolls and what not that were written, were written at a CERTAIN date. They are all written BEFORE the prophecy came true. So how can these be fables and just man's words?

 

Excellent post! Thank you.

 

Let's just agree to agree.

 

I voted agnostic. I do believe that there is a God, but have extremely sharp criticisms of organized religion in general. As God is a deity that knows what is in my heart, I don't see the need to go to church to "prove" my faith.

 

Christian!! Non-denominational

 

Cameraperson brings up some interesting points. Obviously we disagree on many of them.

Thanks I appreciate the debate. Most of whats on this board is inimaginable sillyness not passing for debate.

As far as the persons that have been involved in molesting children or committing other atrocities, I disagree that these people are Christians. Again, anyone who has actually read what is in the Bible knows that these things are condemned by God. Anyone doing these things (especially to children) and calling themselves a Christian is a huge hypocrite. The point I was trying to make is that there are Christians and then there are "Christians". The proof is in a person's actions. I can call myself "King of the Purple Monkeys" if I want to, but that doesn't make it true unless you see a group of purple monkeys following me around catering to my every whim and calling me "sire". (If you have a bunch of purple monkeys, please know that I am not interested in the job of being "King Monkey")

The monkeys may need someone to clean up after them tho.

As for proof of a creator, let's take the house in my original post and put it in the middle of a forest. If you were walking in the forest and suddenly came across it would your first thought be "wow, look at how a house evolved right here in the middle of the forest"? Or would it be "who would have built a house here in the middle of the forest"? We would never doubt there was a builder of the house, how much more so then should there be no doubt that there is a creator of the infinitely more complex universe - right down to the wonderful thing that is a human being.

Yes, if I found a house with windows and nails in a place where it was only wood, I would say "woah who built this." But we are not a house in a non-house forest. We are hydrogen gold carbon oxygen etc - in a location, a space made up of these exact things. We are not window pane glass in a forest. Where do you get hydrogen? Everywhere in the universe. Where do you get gold? From stars that collided or exploded. These elements are clearly what we are made from, and they clearly originated in stars and space. You can see the direct line from unorganized to organized, and its all powered by our star. (Entropy isnt valid here.) Pools of foamy water were everywhere. Lightning, volcanos, tectonics- all produce heat and energy to supply to a primordial earth. And perhaps the organic compounds we can see with telescopes and that fall to the earth from space all the time were the first building blocks. Thats an if, and I wasnt there. I dont know it to be true, these are hypotheses based on observations. Not laws.

I cant understand people pretending they "know" the answers.

As to why has God not done something to stop the evil - Simply put he will.

Too convenient. If god could stop terrorism and cancer, but doesnt- then god is not all powerful OR god is evil.

In the mean time he is allowing the decision that Adam and Eve made in the garden of Eden to play out. God told them don't eat the fruit from one of the trees in the garden. They decided (with some prompting from Satan) to eat that fruit anyway.

God. Purple Monkey on Jupiter. Satan. These things hold the same level of 'reality.' Also leprechauns and thor the thundergod.

Honestly, a grownup believing in Satan as a real thing? At best Satan was hyperbole, myth- like Evil Paul Bunyan (or for the Canadians an Evil Big Joe Mufferaw)

There was a lot more at stake here than God saying "Great, I was saving that fruit for some pie". Adam and Eve had challenged God's right to say what was right and what was wrong. God's decision was essentially to say "OK, you want to make these choices for yourselves, go ahead. I will allow you (Adam and his descendants - i.e. us) to make these choices for yourselves. I will make it possible for all of you to choose which way you want to do things and for those that want to do it my way, I will make a way for you to be reconciled to me" (the sacrifice of his son).

Just like Star Wars. Harry Potter is essentially the same story too.

Why hasn't God acted by now? I do not claim to know that answer.

Why hasnt Obi Wan used the force to come to Earth to save us from evil Lord Vader?

You want me to give credence to your story yet you wont give credence to mine.

Its like some brainwashing goes on- I know, my parents had me in all the classes and whatever- but one thing happened for me that made it seem so unreal.

They seemed to be following a script. Any deviation from the script seemed to make these folks lose their minds. I asked, what are other religions about? The people in the church almost fainted. Nobody asked that, and why would they? The one offered is CLEARLY the correct one.

So why should I not start a "Star Wars: the Religion."
Or for that matter, just make up my own- Purple Monkeys as Creator, God/Devil, and soul collectors on judgment day.

Some hints can be found in that the Bible tells us that he does not want to destroy anyone, but desires all to repent.

Lets take some random letters and see if we can find meaning.
SIEAHRT.

Nothing. Until I put them into an Anagram Generator.

This is what it came upwith but I found meaning in these:

SIT HERE
SHARE IT
EARTH IS
HI RATES

The bible has thousands of words. This list had 7 letters I chose at random AND I FOUND MEANING!

Perhaps he wants to apply the scientific method and allow the experiment to play itself out so that when he does act, no one can challenge his results as they will be definitive.

Obviously I will. If god, then I believe in god. Pretty simple. Thats the way I am, if I found better evidence for something- then I would immediately abandon even a lifetime of cherished lies. But in the absence of evidence, I must move on. I cant say god dosnt exist. Also, I cant say Leprechauns or Purple Monkeys on Jupiter dont either- but I have a pretty good indicator, dont you?

Thats right. The Monkeys are real. They even had that hit song in the 60's.

At any rate, who is doing all of the evil things that cameraperson mentioned? Isn't it men? Why blame God for it?
God has not been shown to be real, why would I blame something that does not exist?

That would be like having a bad day at work because your boss is a jerk and coming home to tell your wife that you wanted a divorce. That is blaming the wrong person for your unhappiness.
Exactly, that makes no sense to divorce your wife if your boss is a jerk. But if I blame all the evils of the world on the devil, a creature without any evidence to show it exists, this somehow makes better sense to you?

And on this one I'm going to need you to show your work or it wont count on the final.

Bottom line is we could on for days, weeks, months or years and both still have the same viewpoint that we do now. To cameraperson I say take care and I truly do wish you all the best.

Sure, I dont think you're bad people. Just misguided and easily corrected. If you can show me god, I will believe. I cant show you god dosnt exist, thats not possible, but I can show you how many ways this belief is not rational nor is it reasonable.

 

Show me. Show any prophesy that came true before the event took place.
Just show one concrete piece of evidence and I will believe.
I am completely willing to believe in preordinance if this is the case.

Mike

 

I would rather hold a single truth in my head about reality than hold a trillion beautiful lies.

I'd have no problem with religion if it was as simple as you make it seem. Someone believes in a creator, someone doesnt.

Thats not how it works out. People literally walk the streets to try to change my mind, they walk up, they seem normal, they they lay it on and its so sickening.

After I realize this is the case, and these people are robots, I simple stop talking and walk away. I just dont care.

If there was evidence I would believe, simple as that.

Since there is not, I have to use very common sense to tell me that a god could stop cancer or terrorism, and any god not willing to do that is just evil (And not something I want to be part of or care about) or this god is not all powerful and therefore not god.

There are lots of ways to think about god, and church shows you how compassionate he is. And loving. And oh cool smallpox and nuclear bombs and wars and genocide and terrorism and --- no god. Clearly.

This isnt the only way to shed light on this obvious situation. Just ask god to appear. Beg god to appear. Stage a showdown with god, so he will appear. Nothing. Strike me dead with lightning god - if you are real. At least I will know the truth.

I would rather hold a single truth in my head about reality than hold a trillion beautiful lies.

 

Isaiah 44:24 to 45:2 - Fall of Babylon. Both the manner of the capture of Babylon and the name of the conqueror were listed here - some 200 years in advance. Not some random string of letters where you have to look for meaning, but the actual strategy and name of the person that would do the conquering.

Cyrus of the Medes and Persians diverted the Euphrates river to lower the water level of the defensive mote around Babylon so that his troops could ford the river and invade the city. Considering that the writing of Isaiah was completed around 732 BCE and the actual event did not happen until around 537 B.C.E., I would call that a fulfilled prophecy. Just one of many found in the Bible. (Foretold that not a bone of Jesus would be crushed at Psalm 34:20 - When the Roman soldiers came to see if Jesus and the other two men that were killed with him were dead, they broke the legs of the two men to hasten their death - Jesus was already dead. To be sure of it, instead of breaking his legs (John 19:32-36), they pierced his side with a spear - which by the way was also prophesied at Isaiah 53:5) Jesus had no control of what those Roman soldiers would do, he was dead already.

As for meaning in the Bible, it has one consistent theme throughout - God's Kingdom. A real government that will do away with wickedness on the earth. From the first prophecy in the Bible at Genesis 3:15 to the book of Revelation that Kingdom is consistently there.

As for evidence that the Devil exists - I cannot fathom putting people in concentration camps or gulags like Germany and the former Soviet Union did nor can I imagine wanting to kill innocent people by strapping on a bomb and getting on a bus or flying a plane into a building as we have seen and continue to see in our time. Most people I have met of my faith and of other faiths, though we disagree, would like to just get along and not fight. Where then does the desire for some men to dominate others come from? I do not belive it comes from within, with the possible exception of some very disturbed individuals. True, I cannot see the Devil with my eyes, nor can I see air or gravity, but I can see their effects so I believe they exist.
It is obvious that we will not agree on this, so I will not post anything further, but I just ask you to consider this: If I am wrong, then at worst I have endeavored to live my life by following the example of a man that even non-Christians have acknowledged as positive and upbuilding. All well and good. But I ask you to consider, what if the Bible is right?

 

A prophesy comes true right when the even happens. Not beforehand. I think that's what you meant though. Just clearing it up.

And Doc stated a couple out of the many. There are still prophesies that have yet to come true. Those are the ones that apply and involve each of us.

I agree that the things happening around the earth are very devastating. It affects all of us. Suffering that is. But just like how the bible can prophesy, it has other information to explain stuff for us as well. It tells us why things are the way they are currently. And looking at prophesies that are yet to be fulfilled helps us see the answer to how such suffering will be remedied.

 

Religion is for people that don't want to go to Hell. Spirituality is for people who have been to Hell and don't want to go back.

I go anywhere I can get nourishment for my soul. To be surrounded or around loving and kind people trying to improve their lives with mine. I have spent a lot of my life in the dark and know that I need the spirit of the sunlight in my life on a daily basis to be a better man.

 

I agree.

I voted agnostic. I do believe that there is a God, but have extremely sharp criticisms of organized religion in general. As God is a deity that knows what is in my heart, I don't see the need to go to church to "prove" my faith.

I agree X2

 

Do you guys know what religion's members will not go to war? There is one. I'm not gonna say though. Meanwhile Catholics vs. Catholics. Christians vs. Christians. Muslims vs. Muslims.

If religions like this were truly unity and practiced love, they would no be doing this. Priests would not be blessing them as they go to war to fight others of their same belief.

 

No. I'm not going to say because I don't want anyone to think im trying to convince people.