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Who has been told they've voided their warranty? What mod did it

Discussion in '2nd Gen. Tacomas' started by Badgtho, Dec 23, 2012.

  1. BamaToy1997

    BamaToy1997 ASE Master Tech Vendor

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    Take it back to the installing dealer. Bring any paperwork that they supplied showing that your warranty will not be affected.

    A dealership can not LEGALLY void a warranty by just seeing a mod installed. If they have, then they have violated the law and you can try the route of a lawsuit if it warrants such a path. In order to void a REPAIR, the dealership must be able to reasonably prove that the mod in question is responsible for the failure. They still can not just "blanket void" a warranty. Even Ford in the case of the above mentioned piston failure must prove that it is the fault of the mod FIRST.
     
  2. Weou09

    Weou09 Well-Known Member

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    deleted secondary air filter
    I don't get why you and the others it word it that way. All they really have to do is say the added power of the mods caused the damage. That is the case with any problem you can come up with...
     
  3. Rich91710

    Rich91710 Well-Known Member

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    Doesn't always work that way.

    Totaled my '93 Blazer, got less than half what I paid for it and not anywhere near enough to buy a decent vehicle. Ended up with a '95 Suburban POS that was the worse decision of my life.
     
  4. BamaToy1997

    BamaToy1997 ASE Master Tech Vendor

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    Why do we word it that way? Because that is what the law says. Why would I say it any different? They do not have to simply say that the added mod caused the failure, they have to prove it. If I had a mod and the dealership said "Sorry, it caused the failure" I would next contact Toyota and take it a step up. Then it is up to Toyota to make the decision. The dealership is NOT the final decider. A dealership is only a franchise. Toyota is the company that has the ultimate decision.
     
  5. Weou09

    Weou09 Well-Known Member

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    http://www.s197forum.com/forum/showthread.php?t=64529&highlight=5.0+void

    Please read the TSB and some of the experiences from 5.0 owners in that thread. I understand that Ford, or whatever manufacturer makes the finial decision. There have been more than a few try to fight this to no avail. This can and will happen with any manufacturer if they see an loop hole to save their self some money.
     
  6. Highland Logan

    Highland Logan UBIQUE

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    This thread has been a good read... but if you plan to use links to back your case in the spirit of show your source... you should mention that to read it you would also have to become a member of that site. I can't speak for anyone other than myself... but I don't plan to join a new web-board every time a source is sited. Do you have any non-membership required sources for your side of the argument?

    Frank
     
  7. 05 X-Runner

    05 X-Runner Murdered X

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    My friend had her's voided when they saw the NST crank ,power steering and fan pulleys installed on her X-Runner for a leaking crank seal, we did the repair oursleves in about 2 hours, then they also said she would have a hard time getting anything replaced since she had headers y-pipe and manifold spacer on her truck
     
  8. BamaToy1997

    BamaToy1997 ASE Master Tech Vendor

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    While I won't register just to read something, I will say that regardless of the manufacturer, they cannot BY LAW void your warranty just because they SEE a modification .(Which is the point I am trying to make here) They must prove in EACH case that the mod caused the failure. Period. That is why we have laws.
     
  9. Weou09

    Weou09 Well-Known Member

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    They must have changed the rules. Didn't have to be a member to read posts before, my computer stays logged in so I guess I've gone without noticing.

    http://mustangforums.com/forum/gt-s.../676074-tsb-5-0-powertrain-warranty-void.html

    That should be view-able as I am not a member there. No one in that thread has posted with first hand experience but it does have the TSB from Ford in it.

    This is the last time I am posting in this thread. I am telling you there have been more than 10 cases, that I know of, where a owner has taken a 5.0 into a dealer for any given thing, whether it be an oil change or whatever, and Ford seen that there was a aftermarket tune, other than the FRPP Pro-cal tune, installed on the car and the power train warranty was voided. Also before some one says "why didn't they just clear the tune, reinstall the factory tune, and take it in" the ecu in this cars have internal memory and power and there is no way of clearing the check sum data on that portion of the ecu, unless Ford does it themselves and even then they call in a rep from Ford Corp. to check over the ecu values to confirm that it was not an aftermarket tune.

    There is obviously some loop hole that Ford's lawyers have found because they are doing this, and in most cases it hasn't come down to a failure it is simply Ford finding out there is, or has been, a tune installed.
     
  10. slowmod01

    slowmod01 Active Member

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    The TSB regarding modding the new 5.0's is attached. Basically, or at least my understanding is that the tunes do not play well with the variable timing and they were more or less consistently smoking the one cylinder. Warranties were being denied after the consumer blew the motor up though, not just under general service / oil changes - at least from what i have seen (been a board member for 8 years). it's not just the tunes either, i've read post where they were going after any mod that may cause a lean condition, air filter, maf upgrade, intake, headers, mid pipe, etc- it's all listed in the TSB. I'll put a link here to the forum i play on, it does not require a logon to browse or even search. There are many post of warranty issues once the motor was running on only 7 cylinders. I can only recall one in which the owner claimed there were no mods, but they were a new member so who knows if that was legit. http://www.modularfords.com/f259/new-tsb-concerning-aftermarket-tuning-177262/

    This has stopped me dead in my tracks from buying a new boss.
     

    Attached Files:

  11. BamaToy1997

    BamaToy1997 ASE Master Tech Vendor

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    Glad to see this is the last time. I was getting tired of arguing the laws with you. I have worked at dealerships for years, and you can take a performance tune that has been written and overwrite it with a factory program and there will be no way for Ford, or any other manufacturer to know that you had a performance tune. The only thing that they can tell is that a factory program was recently installed. That is it. There is no "check sum data" or any other BS like that. It is just like having a flash drive that you erase and rewrite over. No history. Now maybe, just MAYBE if they went through the expense of having a forensic computer expert look at the ECM/PCM they might find the ghost data, but let's get real, they are not going to pay out that kind of cash to do it.

    So you say they have done it before? Voided a customers warranty because they drove in and had a performance tune put in? Well they violated the law by doing that. The law is simple and finite. And if a customer just lays down and says nothing, then their warranty is no good.... But the LAW states that they have rights, and that Ford, and any other manufacturer who wishes to void a warranty claim, MUST prove that the modification is the cause of the failure. That being said, read my below comment to the next quote.


    Finally some real evidence and proof in where Ford is headed with this! Thank you. I can see how a lean condition could cause a failure of a cylinder, and thus resulting in a failed piston. As you mentioned though, Ford had to prove that the there was an actual FAILURE and that it was a result of the tune. Obviously driving your car into a dealership with decals saying "performance tune" is not evidence enough. If I want to put a bunch of racing stickers on my brothers truck, they cant void his warranty. First there has to be a failure. Something has to break. THEN the manufacturer has to reasonably prove that the failure was a result of the mod. (As your post shows support for this mostly) I would (If I owned one of these modded Fords) ask for evidence that proved my piston failure was because of the tune. If the system was running lean, the computer would have shown that it was running lean. So show it to me! Prove it to me and I will accept this. But just tell me that when I come in with my Mustang to get an oil change, and you see a performance tune sticker on my car that my warranty is voided and I will see you in court. THEY CANNOT DO THIS BY LAW! Go back and read the Magnuson-Moss Act for those who did not. And thank you for your post. It brings light to the specific Ford issue.
     
  12. slowmod01

    slowmod01 Active Member

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    The popular belief seems to be that the newer computers in these (particularly powerstrokes and stangs) are able to log the # of times the ecm has been flashed, but not any specific info from the flashes.

    I imagine the way most are getting nailed though (and probably leading to the former belief) is they smoke the piston, hook up there programmer and dump the factory program back in and then take it to the dealer. Obviously you know the car has to be drive cycled "X" number of miles in order to clear the p1000 code, but if it is missing a cylinder then chances are it cant be driven that far or it just plain never passes the drive cycle test due to the other numerous codes it would throw.

    This is nothing new, i remember reading threads where people were getting their warranties scratched on the '03-'04 cobra's too, especially after running a 150 shot or more through it. Ford has just finally stepped up and said no more.
     
  13. Jon4x4

    Jon4x4 I said MEOW!!!

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    I did work for ford and yes, by using ths ids and reflashing the pcm with ford, it will erase everything. We had the 6.4 and 6.0 reflashes andthe customer's complained because their tuners no longer worked haha
     
  14. BamaToy1997

    BamaToy1997 ASE Master Tech Vendor

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    I love how many times I had customers at our GM dealers complain that when we had to reflash their PCM that they lost their superchip or whatever brand performance tune....Sorry, Dealerships gotta reflash to factory. lol.

    That being said, I am reminded of when I was working at Jon Hall Chevy in Daytona beach several years ago. We had a guy come in with a big-block V8 and an Allison transmission with about 20k miles on it. Now GM hadn't had the Allison in their trucks for very long, and we were still not authorized to open them up yet. If there was an internal failure, the unit got replaced, and the original was sent back to them for inspection.

    Well this guy comes in with a BADLY burned up transmission. No shifts, stuck in 3rd. I opened the hood and the first thing I noticed was this giant decal across the firewall that said "Superchips". Well I am not one to be an ass, so I went ahead and started checking things. Inspected the fluid and it was black as night and smelled something TERRIBLE.

    The shop foreman comes over cause this was the first Allison failure we had seen and he was curious. Well he is a performance enthusiast (He had a tricked out Mustang) and he noticed the sticker. He points it out to me and I tell him that I saw it, but wanted to check things out first. So while I was checking the rest of the transmission (Pulling fluid samples) the customer came back with the manager. Our shop foreman asks the customer about the sticker and the customer admitted that he did buy a program for it, but that he did not have it in there but a few days, and didn't feel that it was responsible for the rapid failure, and that the check engine light came on shortly after the program was installed, and he brought it in to get that looked at as well.

    So I pull the codes and I told the shop foreman that something was REALLY strange, because some of the codes that popped up were not codes for the Allison. So I pulled up the PCM software part number and we wrote it down and called Superchips. I just about fell over laughing when the Superchips rep said that they didn't even HAVE a program for the trucks with the Allison transmission! The customer, not realizing it, had bought a program for the Silverado with a 4L80E transmission, which is only a 4 speed, and not at ALL compatible with the Allison.

    End of story is that the Customer had to pay for a replacement transmission to the tune of $7k just for the transmission plus install! (At that time the Allison was new, so replacement units were not cheap) In that $7k was the cost of reflashing the PCM back to factory, and the customer was told that he was to leave the factory programming in or future powertrain failures may not be covered by warranty. His dad was PISSED because he was the one who had to come down and pay for everything.
     
  15. BamaToy1997

    BamaToy1997 ASE Master Tech Vendor

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    I love how many times I had customers at our GM dealers complain that when we had to reflash their PCM that they lost their superchip or whatever brand performance tune....Sorry, Dealerships gotta reflash to factory. lol.

    That being said, I am reminded of when I was working at Jon Hall Chevy in Daytona beach several years ago. We had a guy come in with a big-block V8 and an Allison transmission with about 20k miles on it. Now GM hadn't had the Allison in their trucks for very long, and we were still not authorized to open them up yet. If there was an internal failure, the unit got replaced, and the original was sent back to them for inspection.

    Well this guy comes in with a BADLY burned up transmission. No shifts, stuck in 3rd. I opened the hood and the first thing I noticed was this giant decal across the firewall that said "Superchips". Well I am not one to be an ass, so I went ahead and started checking things. Inspected the fluid and it was black as night and smelled something TERRIBLE.

    The shop foreman comes over cause this was the first Allison failure we had seen and he was curious. Well he is a performance enthusiast (He had a tricked out Mustang) and he noticed the sticker. He points it out to me and I tell him that I saw it, but wanted to check things out first. So while I was checking the rest of the transmission (Pulling fluid samples) the customer came back with the manager. Our shop foreman asks the customer about the sticker and the customer admitted that he did buy a program for it, but that he did not have it in there but a few days, and didn't feel that it was responsible for the rapid failure, and that the check engine light came on shortly after the program was installed, and he brought it in to get that looked at as well.

    So I pull the codes and I told the shop foreman that something was REALLY strange, because some of the codes that popped up were not codes for the Allison. So I pulled up the PCM software part number and we wrote it down and called Superchips. I just about fell over laughing when the Superchips rep said that they didn't even HAVE a program for the trucks with the Allison transmission! The customer, not realizing it, had bought a program for the Silverado with a 4L80E transmission, which is only a 4 speed, and not at ALL compatible with the Allison.

    End of story is that the Customer had to pay for a replacement transmission to the tune of $7k just for the transmission plus install! (At that time the Allison was new, so replacement units were not cheap) In that $7k was the cost of reflashing the PCM back to factory, and the customer was told that he was to leave the factory programming in or future powertrain failures may not be covered by warranty. His dad was PISSED because he was the one who had to come down and pay for everything.
     
  16. Rich91710

    Rich91710 Well-Known Member

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    GM was notorious to slamming warranties on the Duramax.
    There were two ways to program... reflash/download like the BullyDog or Hypertech, and the add-on boxes like Van Aken, TDS, etc...

    The add-on box connected inline between the ECU and the engine.
    It interpreted the signals from the engine and told the ECU what it wanted to see, and it modified the signals from the ECU and told the engine what you wanted it to do. These were completely transparent to the ECU, so there was no way to prove that such a device had been used via software.

    GM published an entire procedure on determining if "power adders" were a factor in a failure, including analyzing the fuel spray pattern on the piston tops, as well as "normal" things that appear out of proportion for the engine's hours such as carbon accumulation above the top ring, cylinder taper, bearing clearance, etc...
     
  17. Jon4x4

    Jon4x4 I said MEOW!!!

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    hilarious.. i work there now haha
     
  18. DR Da_da

    DR Da_da Well-Known Member

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    Off subject, but that's my hometown!
     
  19. Bill Hill

    Bill Hill WILLIAM HILL

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    About 2 months ago I bought my 2008 Tacoma Pickup. Prettiest truck on the ford dealership lot. I didn't argue the price, & I bought every warranty they asked me to buy to cover the whole thing (MPP-Mechanical Protection Plan) Theft On-Guard, Sky Link, Paintless Dent Repair, Electrical & Mechanical (Engine & Power train ). I also have what they call Tire Assure. You name it, I got it, except the interior coverage they said they could not sell me due to the vehicles age. Anyway, I put in for a flat & also told them the tire pressure light was on. They said because the wheels were changed out for 20" wheels and that they had no tire sensors on them, I would have to pay $150. a wheel for the sensors & they would install them. The Sensors would cost $ 600.00 & they would fix the problem. One of the guys said it really wasn't that great of a feature. If the light bothered me, just put black tape over the light area. I am very happy with my truck & love it, but my question is: Would you pay them the $600.00 to fix the problem or order the sensors yourself & have them put them on to fix the problem, or is it a big deal to have that? Love to read your input about this & ideas as to what I should do.
     
  20. DoorDing

    DoorDing Thank you, Nancy Roman

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    Welcome to TW, Bill.

    Did the truck come from the Ford dealer with the 20" wheels?
    If so, was the TPMS light on at the time you bought the truck?
    If it was, you might be able to get the dealership to cover TPMS sensor installation under your warranty package, but it'll depend on the exact wording of the warranty. TPMS sensors may be considered a non-covered, wear item.

    Your truck is an '08, so the OEM TPMS sensor batteries would probably be near the end of their lives anyway. If you want the TPMS to function as designed, you'll need to determine what sensors will work with the 20" wheels and your truck. Tirerack may be able to help you sort that out. If you just want to kill the TPMS light, you can cover it, disconnect it, or buy a set of TPMS sensors and store them in your truck in a small, pressurized container. If you decide to do anything with new sensors, you'll need to have them coded to your truck. You also may need a sensor for your spare; I'm not sure if '08s spares came with one.
     
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