Who is responsible for the problem (Story)

This ^^^. I don't think Randy is at fault if he stated to the customer that his installation is "as-is" and it is even noted on the "contract" between him and the customer. It might have been good if Randy had given the customer a written quote of options, such as replacing the seals, and have the customer waive those. Since it sounds like the customer is cheap/broke he probably would have declined it anyway if it was offered.
Since there is a 90-day warranty, the customer should have to fight it out with Pete, and Randy should not have to be involved - he did what he was paid to do.
If the warranty states it is certain mechanical parts only, seals are excluded etc., then it is the customer's problem.

 

That's a mess. My opinion is the owner should have to pay. He bought the transmission used and the place said to replace the seals and gaskets, although not at the correct time. Randy did his job, he pulled the old one out and put the new one in and during the process found the leak and offered his advice on fixing it. Really no one is technically at fault. Pete sold it as is, randy installed it, and the owner just located and bought it. For the additional parts needed, the owner should have to comp it. Just my opinion.

 

salvage yard or customer, either way not the shops fault

 

I work at a dealership. We have people try to get us to install items that they bought at a salvage yard and want them warranteed. We do not bench test items, we do simple install and charge labor. If you want me to put in the same item four times because you keep bringing me pieces of garbage, then it's on you. We will suggest additional items if they may be needed or recommended but that is as far as that goes. We have installed used motors or transmissions. Most salvage yards will have a 60-90 day warranty, parts only. But when you buy a part, they are not bench tested. Most salvage yards will say "working when removed from vehicle" and that's it. If you save some money buying a junkyard part, then you need to accept the risk involved. If you want it to be like new, then buy new. Want to save money on used, then you get used parts. Personally I've been on both sides of this issue. People want a 100% perfect, or "as new" part for 1/3 the price from a junkyard and get pissed when it isn't so.

 

Pete's should be responsible. If they offer a warranty on the transmission for 90 days, they should honor it. Yes, it probably should have been recommended by Randy that the seals would be a good idea to replace. But if Pete never specified that to the customer in the first place and did not have some sort of paperwork/instructions included with the salvaged transmission recommending this replacement, he should be liable.

Someone also said that replacing the seals requires dismantling part of the transmission which could also lead to a void of the warranty...if that's the case then the seals NEED to be replaced by Pete's prior to selling any salvaged transmission IMO.

 

What they said ^

 

Did "Pete's Salvage" say the tranny was problem free?

I say it is your fault for purchasing a questionable tranny. Don't blame the repair shop. You brought them junk. Junk in equals junk out.

Scary thing is this happens all the time. Easy to get mad at repair shop. You pay good money to have something fixed. My buddies shop won't guarantee a car that somebody else has already touched (messed up).

Get it done right the first time.



Ride the bus. Save your money. Buy a rebuilt tranny.

 

Has the situation been handled or is it still ongoing? Best of luck to ya if it's still ongoing.

 

I'd say a 90 day warrantee is a guarantee that the part is defect free? If a seal that is not normally replaced as part of a trans swap is bad - That is a problem for whoever warranted the parts, not the owner or installer.

 

My take.

Transmission is bought at a Salvage yard with 90 day warranty, which for the most part means it will work or bring back for exchange. Don't know of any that refund.

With that said Salvage means salvage, not restored, not rebuilt or refurbished, means "as is". If you install and it leaks it's not the salvage yard's responsibility to fix said leak, since the operative word is salvage. Now if you installed and it didn't work in those 90 days then you have a case.

Installer quoted that it will be installed "as is" which was done and leak discovered. Not the installers fault that it leaks. He did not sell the transmission to customer.

Customer should have had enough brains to have new seals installed before having it installed in vehicle. Customer should pay for additional work ie: seals & bushings. He bought a used item that was salvage, not rebuilt, refurbished etc. How can he blame anyone for it leaking from the seals on a salvaged item.

That's like buying a used waterpump and using the old gasket instead of a new one. Gaskets and seals are not meant to be reused. Bushing do go out. These are maintenance items. Sure you can get away with it "sometimes". But not always.

That's my 2 cents.

 

I think it is on the salvage yard, depending on how their warranty is worded. I'm going to assume the trans was clean when it was dropped off by the customer? When the trans was taken out of the previous vehicle was the bell housing covered in oil? Had it been washed off? If so, then they knowingly sold a defective part to the customer, they should not only cover it, but be smacked around for being shady. If it has been out of a vehicle for some time, it is possible the seal cracked and started leaking upon install, but I would think that to be unlikely. Still on the salvage yard. It might have been a good idea for the shop to recommend changing the seals, but if the customer is already in a salvage transmission, they are most likely not in a spot to dump more money into it, even though they probably should.
This is why most shops, and every shop I've ever worked in, doesnt install used or outsourced parts.
Since your work orders say no warranty, you are covered legally. Morals are much tougher to deal with than all that legal crap...

 

So now that I have gathered some information I feel confident in what I did and said.

This is the rest of the info. I was quite confident in my end of the deal. I buy salvage transmissions and engines a few times a year for customers from a large nationwide network of salvage yards. These units come with a full 1 year warranty. The only requirement from the network suppliers is that engines get a new oil filter, and the oil replaced, and transmissions have never come with any requirements. My shop has been doing this for about 2 years now. These units do cost a bit more than the local salvage yards charge (example: transmission in network is $800, transmission at local yard is $500) but do come with a better warranty. I do not buy from local yards because none of them will deliver, and as the nearest yard is 30 miles away, I am not about to drive and pick up parts.

It is because of this, and prior history of installing salvaged parts at dealerships, it has never been a rule or even a generalized idea to replace seals or bushings. This is why I had never even THOUGHT to mention or suggest a replacement of the seals or bushings, as in all the ones I have installed, none have ever leaked. in estimation we are talking 200 plus salvaged transmissions over 20+ years. Whenever there were ANY problems with a unit, the salvage yards were prompt in taking care of the costs, many even covered labor.

Because of this, Tuesday I performed and experiment. My sister and I both called 10 different salvage yards in the local and surrounding areas. We asked for a price and warranty on different transmissions. My sister even called the salvage yard where my customer bought his transmission. When we asked about certain details, we specifically asked if there was anything that we needed to do prior to installing the unit.

Out of the 10 locations, only 2 said we should, but were not required to replace the filter and pan gasket. (In hindsight this does bring to light a good idea, and I will be implementing this suggestion for all future salvaged transmissions we install. After all we require oil filter and oil changed in an engine, why not a transmission?) Interestingly enough when my sister called the yard that this customer bought his from, they told her that she did not need to do anything at all except make sure that it was filled with the correct fluid type. Not a single mention about any seals or bushings.

So end result, what happened? I notified customer that even though I felt we had done exactly what we said we would do, and that the leak was of no fault of ours, and all used parts are installed as is, we would work with him. Customer was asked to pay for the seal and bushing, and we reduced the labor charges for removing the transmission again, and replacing the seal and bushing in half.

His car is now finished and ready for him to pick up. We are now also printing up a sign to display on the service drive stating that all salvage yard parts will be installed as they are brought to us, unless the customer asks for additional parts to be replaced.

I do understand how some people feel on this, and I get how it seems on the outside that a few seals and bushings are a simple thing to replace, but on some transmissions the additional labor to disassemble far enough to replace the bushings can increase the cost by a couple of hundred dollars. Not every transmission is the same, and it is much easier to advise the customer that parts that are brought in from outside sources, and not through us, are installed as is, with no warranty.

There is a big difference between a seal or gasket that is part of an install, and a seal that is part of a component. Not that this would ever happen, but if I installed a new connecting rod in an engine, I wouldn't reuse the head gasket, but I wouldn't replace the water pump seal. The front pump cover seal on a transmission is part of a component, not part of an install. It is not "removed and reinstalled" when you swap out a transmission.

 

Totally agree with how you addressed the situation. You didn't have to lower the labor price for the replacement of the parts but you wanted to have hopefully a returning customer. I really like it when shops "work" with the customer when certain special situations arise.

 

Well done OP!

 

I know there is a big difference between the two, I only used the pump & gasket as an example. A front seal normal doesn't go out but a rear seal usually will long before the front & is a simple remedy to replace. At least in my experience with salvaged transmissions. I've never had a front seal go out just the rear. Which can be replaced while transmission is in the vehicle, front seal....yeah you have to remove the transmission.

And your correct that not all auto trans are the same. My experience is with the TH350 & 400. Along with Saginaw & Muncie manuals.

 

The transmission in question was a 4 speed automatic in a Ford Mustang. The seal and bushing that was bad was the front one.

 

When I dropped off my ARB differential and gears to be installed in my (one year new) 3rd member the shop was happy to take my money on an hourly rate on an install to be done with NO WARRANTY. I'm using CAPS because that's how it was stamped on the sales receipt.

I think the distinction between a seal that's part of the transmission, vs. a gasket or seal that's destroyed and re-mounted as part of the install, is key in this case. When you're working on the cheap, you don't go looking for extra work to be done.

In my experience, salvage yards are typically pretty liberal with their parts-only warranty. Don't work? No prob. Bring it back and we'll give ya 'nother one. R&R is on you.

All that said, someone who's hard up enough to be shopping around for a bottom dollar salvage tranny and then having it installed at a shop - is probably pretty squeezed in the wallet. He's probably hoping for a good outcome and perhaps looking at the picture a bit through rose colored glasses. "Naturally the reputable shop will fix any problems that come up with the install - that's why I'm paying them."

As a businessman (as opposed to simply a mechanic) it behooves you to be aware of this situation and paint out all the scenarios ahead of time - to make sure you and the customer are on the same page.

"Look" you say. "I'll install this transmission for you. But most guys who buy these junkyard trannys are installing it themselves. If it doesn't work out, they'll take it back to the junkyard and get another one. All they're out is a little extra time. But you're paying me twenty-two-gajillion dollars an hour for the privilege of installing it. What if it doesn't work? I'm either going to hand you a broken car - or I'm going to have to charge you again for the labor to take it out so you can take it back to the junkyard. Now you've paid me twice, and your car still doesn't work. How are you feeling about those odds? I could tear down the transmission and replace all the seals. That'll cost eleventy-billion, but it'll decrease the chance of a serious leak, and increase the odds that the transmission will last a little longer. Or you can pay me twenty-six gajillion dollars to install a transmission from a supplier I know will work with me if their part turns out to be faulty. Or you can pay me by-the-hour to install this one as is, and hope for the best. Your call."

 

I view buying salvaged parts as a buyer beware thing regardless of warranties involved. In the end, imo, its the owners vehicle and since they made the decision to buy a trans outta a wrecked vehicle (guess) thats on them. Sure its nice that the savage yard has 'warranties' on what they sell but imo thats not enough to justify buying the wrecked-out trans.

 

I voted for the owner being responsible, but depending on the nature of this ambiguous 90 day warranty he may be able to return tranny and/or get $ out of Pete.

Now I'll read thru pages 2-4 and find out where this all went ....

Nicely played OP

Filter and pan gasket seem to be the most reasonable to me. I run heavy equipment... sometimes get/have to work in the shop on it - first thing we do when troubleshooting/inspecting is remove suspect oil filter, cut paper out of canister, squeeze in vise to remove excess oil and then inspect. I would do the same here, if a tranny filter is even inspectable (seems to me they are more of a screen than anything).

One point of concern to me though is your leak - what actually caused it? Too much pressure? Bushing sliding on shaft? Bearings? Front seal is an odd one and I believe is supplied internal pressure oil. I would tell customer to keep an eye on it and keep their fingers crossed.

Best of luck to you OP and nicely played thread!

 

Transmission should have been inspected before the install. I wouldn't be surprised if the leak was detectable before it was installed.

But then again maybe it was the first time it had ever leaked. Doubtful though.

90 parts warranty. This shouldnt be an issue.