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Why LEDs should not be run in Halogen reflectors

Discussion in 'Lighting' started by crashnburn80, Oct 6, 2016.

  1. Oct 18, 2018 at 5:22 PM
    #101
    crashnburn80

    crashnburn80 [OP] Vehicle Design Engineer

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    He’s still around! He leads some very big lighting conferences for the automotive industry, as in ones attended by major automotive manufactures and major lighting corporations. I’ve talked (emailed) with him a fair amount within the past year.
     
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  2. Oct 18, 2018 at 6:03 PM
    #102
    se7enine

    se7enine MCMLXXIX

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    He's a Mopar guy so he is active in those forums.
     
  3. Oct 18, 2018 at 6:54 PM
    #103
    crashnburn80

    crashnburn80 [OP] Vehicle Design Engineer

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    Thats funny, he told me how much he hates forums because there are just so many people promoting such bad lighting advice, especially with LEDs.
     
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  4. Oct 18, 2018 at 7:00 PM
    #104
    se7enine

    se7enine MCMLXXIX

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    He's quick to put in his input and help change minds for the better. He does what he can. You're like TW's resident Daniel Stern. :thumbsup:
     
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  5. Oct 18, 2018 at 7:09 PM
    #105
    crashnburn80

    crashnburn80 [OP] Vehicle Design Engineer

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    Thanks for the compliment. :) I've received that one a few times, but he knows more than I. I've shown him a few of my threads, one of the areas of criticism is the threads place too much lighting power into those that do not know how to properly use their lights. For example, massively bright fog lights actually hurt distance vision causing too much near field light which constricts your eyes preventing night time distance vision if you are driving with them on when not needed. Great if you use them when they are really needed in dense fog, not so much if you are driving around with them all the time using them as 'aux driving lights'. They are a tool for a specific purpose. I have it on my To-Do list to update the applicable threads with how to correctly use your lights so you are not doing yourself more harm than good.
     
  6. Oct 19, 2018 at 1:26 AM
    #106
    crashnburn80

    crashnburn80 [OP] Vehicle Design Engineer

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    Updated with example after example after example after example on why this is a bad practice.

    If you think I am harsh on this feedback you should get the direct feedback of my colleagues in the professional lighting industry on these LED products.
     
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  7. Oct 24, 2018 at 11:16 PM
    #107
    crashnburn80

    crashnburn80 [OP] Vehicle Design Engineer

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    Eliminating the glare part of the equation by using 3rd Gen projectors, how do LEDs compare? I've posted plenty about loss of focus with LEDs and figured a solid example would be helpful in illustrating the issue.

    Recall halogen optics work by concentrating a beam into a hotspot to project distance. Lack of a hotspot or reduction of hotspot equates to lack of distance projection and a pattern shift of moving the light pattern toward the vehicle, which aside from greatly reducing distance projection also increases foreground light which constricts pupils to further reduce night distance vision. Hotspots and distance projection is increased by making light sources smaller and more precise to increase optical focus to project the light further. While you want more light, you want the more light projected further down road, not more light in a blob immediately in front of you.

    Stock wattage H11 GE Megalight +130 performance halogen on the Left vs XD Pro high output LED right
    cmYuWsuHS42tRCcYmRXG%A.jpg

    While the LED actually has a higher lumen output rating, focus is completely lost. Hotspot is eliminated and distance projection is lost. The pattern has shifted from projecting distance to high foreground lighting, which as mentioned above is not a good thing.

    You can see the halogen filament on center, with reflections off the rear of the projector concentrating the light into a focused hotspot. And recall smaller light sources create better focus for higher intensity.
    xAXRRwgSRkqR5N%R0QRdsQ.jpg

    Compared to the LED, there is no center focus at all. It is difficult to say if those even reflect off the back of the projector since they are side firing, but for focus you should have light in the very center of the housing, and it is absent. Affect on the beam is predictable.
    Xvk31dMMS7u73vXLtGVPeQ.jpg

    So what does this mean for output? See earlier photo for pattern.

    Using a professional grade LED compatible light meter:

    XD Pro LED:
    Lb6K%+O+QCGBBcCR9L4STQ.jpg


    Stock wattage H11 GE +130 performance halogen:
    GRJtbYziQyS+0DYx4Ur%CA.jpg

    Not even close. The stock wattage performance halogen is appearing to burn a hole through the door with the highly focused projected distance lighting while the LEDs are providing more of a generalized short range flood light, which is not what you want in a headlight. The headlights primary purpose is to project distance so you can safely see at speed.

    GE adds the blue tint at the back of the bulb, so that the edges of the beam get the blue appearance that many are looking for without affecting the output by filtering the primary beam pattern with blue tint.

    Somewhat difficult to tell in these photos but the halogen beam arcs down on either side of the hotspot, with the LEDs it arcs upward on either side of where the hot spot would be if there was one, because the light sources are moved off center. Not helpful to oncoming drivers.

    GE Megalight +130 bulbs used in this test:
    https://www.powerbulbs.com/us/product/ge-megalight-ultra-h11-twin
     
    Last edited: Oct 24, 2018
  8. Oct 26, 2018 at 1:03 PM
    #108
    An!mal!a

    An!mal!a Well-Known Member

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    I plan to get these bulbs as an upgrade for the headlights. I understand they are for the low beams. Do you have a similar recommendation for upgrading the high beams? Or are the stock ones in the 3rd gen already good enough?

    Thanks again!
     
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  9. Oct 26, 2018 at 2:22 PM
    #109
    crashnburn80

    crashnburn80 [OP] Vehicle Design Engineer

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    Those GE +130 bulbs are hyper focused for best distance projection, I've tried a handful and would recommend those.

    You can also use an H9 in the low beam with trimming the internal tab as shown here for more output, but even the higher power H9s which put out more lumens than the LEDs cannot match the hot spot intensity of the high efficiency focused GEs. H9s 743 lux vs GEs 984 lux. H9s are among the highest output headlight bulb, there is no higher efficiency version like there is for low beams. I would recommend leaving the high beams as stock H9s.

    [​IMG]
     
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  10. Oct 26, 2018 at 4:38 PM
    #110
    An!mal!a

    An!mal!a Well-Known Member

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    Again, thank you! I’m learning a good deal through your posts. I really appreciate it. Just placed the order for the GE H11 bulbs. Good thing, there is a 25% discount promotion going on. They will be shipped from UK. I tried to find an online US dealer selling these but no luck.
     
    Last edited: Oct 26, 2018
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  11. Oct 26, 2018 at 4:47 PM
    #111
    crashnburn80

    crashnburn80 [OP] Vehicle Design Engineer

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    Powerbulbs has a great selection and even though they are out of the UK shipping time is reasonably quick, especially considering they don’t charge for shipping. They usually have some ongoing sale but 25% off is pretty good.
     
  12. Oct 26, 2018 at 10:42 PM
    #112
    NMTrailRider

    NMTrailRider Well-Known Member

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    I just installed these Philips Ultinon 194 bulbs for the license plate. And they are extremely bright. Would a cop ever pull you over for lights too bright on the license plates?

    C6DD2F87-F589-4293-ADD7-C868416769CA.jpg
     
  13. Oct 26, 2018 at 10:57 PM
    #113
    crashnburn80

    crashnburn80 [OP] Vehicle Design Engineer

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    Extremely unlikely. Is there a reason you want to hyper illuminate your license plate for others? The plates are reflective and the LEDs have lots of short wavelength blue light that scatters easily, especially off reflective surfaces, making your plate look nearly radioactive. I don’t really see the benefit.
     
  14. Oct 26, 2018 at 11:00 PM
    #114
    NMTrailRider

    NMTrailRider Well-Known Member

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    Nope not interested in hyper illuminating the license plate. I just wanted led's in that location to better match the tail lights. But due to brightness, I think i'll go back to the OEM bulbs. I had no idea they'd be this bright.
     
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  15. Oct 26, 2018 at 11:13 PM
    #115
    crashnburn80

    crashnburn80 [OP] Vehicle Design Engineer

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    Philips bulbs typically do a decent job of not being overly bright compared to others, trying to mimic stock levels. I suspect it is more color temperature issue and the reflectiveness of the plate paired with blue LED light.
     
    Last edited: Oct 26, 2018
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  16. Oct 26, 2018 at 11:49 PM
    #116
    NMTrailRider

    NMTrailRider Well-Known Member

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    You might be right about color temp. But man, they sure do seem bright. Interestingly, I can see much better in the back up cam with them installed. But I think that can be color temp related, as well.
     
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  17. Oct 28, 2018 at 5:58 PM
    #117
    Kidwidataco

    Kidwidataco Yes, my avatar is a real car.

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    Oops, Im totally guilty of this. A friend of mine offered to retrofit my headlights for 400 bucks. Doesn't seem like a bad deal. However, my lights are wrapped in a yellow tint (For snow, fog and rain visibility) seems to knock down some of the glare, I rarely get flashed. And if I do its because my trucks headlights is level with their eyes haha
     
  18. Oct 28, 2018 at 7:26 PM
    #118
    crashnburn80

    crashnburn80 [OP] Vehicle Design Engineer

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    You should show your friend this thread. Yellow helps knock down the harshness/intensity of the glare, with retrofits the glare shield takes care of most of it, though where the edges of the pattern curve down with halogens as designed, with LEDs they actually curve up, which isn't good. But regardless you still have the loss of distance projection issue with LEDs. Most automotive LEDs produce lots of blue light, meaning the yellow filters are going to have a pretty negative effect on output, while halogens produce very little blue light, meaning the yellow filters will have minimal effect on output. Halogens will perform better with the yellow filters.
     
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  19. Oct 29, 2018 at 9:10 AM
    #119
    siznarf

    siznarf Everyone my age is older than me...

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    Ordered mine last week and can't wait to get them! Been using OPT-7s for 2 years now ... not sure how I was able to see at night lol

    Anyway, what bulbs would you recommend for stock fog light housing for 3rd gens?
     
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  20. Oct 29, 2018 at 5:59 PM
    #120
    crashnburn80

    crashnburn80 [OP] Vehicle Design Engineer

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    Depends on if you have the H10 or TRD H11 factory fogs. The H11 TRD fogs are wide angle and cover a larger area for more coverage.

    Halogen upgrades: (Keep in mind fogs are a tool that should be run when needed, they are not aux driving lights. Putting in this very powerful fog upgrade will cause a loss in night distance visibility due to dramatic increases in foreground light if they are used when not needed. While the pattern is maintained to prevent glare, the small fog reflectors will be exceptionally bright to other motorists.)
    H11s: https://www.tacomaworld.com/threads/the-ultimate-foglight-upgrade-h11-not-led-or-hid.435419/
    H10s: https://www.tacomaworld.com/threads/the-h10-to-9011-hir-foglight-upgrade-better-than-led.528143/

    I personally really like the TRD wide-angle, if you do not have a TRD truck you might look for OEM TRD take-offs that are sold cheaply on the forum as people put on plate bumpers or swap out to LED.

    For the H11s a readily available yellow glare capped H9 is an easy upgrade. H9s do not require the harness listed in the H11 thread. Copy/paste from said thread.
    Yellow bulbs: Optilux makes a glare caped yellow H9. H9 is an extremely high performance bulb, I have better faith in a stock wattage high performance bulb than a high wattage one, but I have not tried these myself.
    Optilux 65w yellow H9

    If you wanted LEDs: https://www.tacomaworld.com/threads/the-led-sae-j583-fog-pod-fog-light-review.554813/
    For pattern comparison, the Rigid LEDs side projection is 45 degrees (all the LEDs seemed about the same) where as the TRD wide-angle fogs is 75 degrees.
     
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