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Why you should not bring a TSB to the SA....

Discussion in '2nd Gen. Tacomas (2005-2015)' started by Kingfrog, Mar 25, 2011.

  1. Mar 25, 2011 at 10:03 AM
    #1
    Kingfrog

    Kingfrog [OP] Well-Known Member

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    I spoke with my retired dealer mechanic neighbor about TSBs . Pretty enlightening...

    He and his coworkers did not like them brought in by customers them because the Service Adviser will have to indicate the customer's TSB on the Service order. The SO then goes to the Warranty Administrator who job it is to get the dealership and mechanic paid. The WA would only get pre authorized to fix the TSB nothing more based on the customer's "diagnosis" and solution. This immediately takes all paid time for "diagnosis" from the technician.

    The Third party insurer. (Toyota or in the South, Fidelity) would ONLY pay for the TSB. (at a lower rate) After all that's what the customer decided was the issue, The technician MAY not do anything more even if he found something else other than the TSB was causing the issue because he would only be paid the labor rate for the TSB and would be basically working free afterwards looking for further causes. They are limited by the hours in the TSB....... (Otherwise techs would be "finding something else" all day long for more money!!!) The tech cannot fix anything that was not a complaint on the service order. I don;t know about you but I would rather have my technician convince the WA of the work needed over myself


    He ALREADY lost "diagnosis income" and may be pissed . For example say you thought you had the Steering shaft issue and it turned out to be something OTHER than the TSB. He would not get paid for fixing the real issue because he was only authorized to perform the TSB the customer already diagnosed and approved by the Warranty Administrator with the proper pay/hours rate for THAT fix only. The Warranty administrator gets PRE APPROVAL for that fix only and the dealership gets paid for that fix only nothing more. So he does that and gives the vehicle back. Why work free unless he is a really nice guy and doesn;t have good pyaing work up next.

    Every warranty issue has to be pre approved by the independent third party WARRANTY COMPANY whether Toyota or in the south Fidelity. The dealership approves nothing. Without proper diagnosis and the customer already having decided whats wrong it makes it easy for the SA the WA and sucks for the mechanics. Once more, I would rather have my technician convince the WA of the work needed over myself. They have a vested interest to do so.


    As an aside the TSB only work is likely to be tossed to a green new guy tech at the lower rate while the experienced tech takes the higher paying diagnosis or non warranty work.....like oil changes..LOL

    His advice. Take the truck in with the problem. Demonstrate the problem and LET THE TECHNICIANS DIAGNOSE the problem and get paid for that time and they will understand what it is and fix it. They know far more than the owner the difference between a TSB and another issue and WILL fix all the issues they find. They are inclined to spend MORE time on a non customer diagnosed issue. Hand the SA a TSB and that is all that is done. Ther Service writer has to indicate you brought in a TSB to the Warranty administrator. If the truck comes back with the same issue then try the TSB route if it has not been indicated as having been done.

    It costs the service tech money if the problem has already been diagnosed by the customer. Of ALL the people in the process that is the guy you don;t want pissed off..That is why it is so important to allow the tech to do the diagnosis as well as they can find other things to fix rather than allow the warranty administrator to lock them down to a customer solved issue and just be authorized for that fix.

    Now this made a lot of sense to me. When I go in for my vibration between 15-30MPH I will leave the TSB at home and let them do their job. They may find something else.....or just fix it with the TSB.

    Can anyone else who works in Service deny or confirm this explanation or correct areas of disagreement? . It made a whole lot of sense to me and cleared up a lot of questions I had. Especially that the dealer does not have anything to do with what gets approved for fixing under warranty

    When do you USE a TSB? When you have an issue and the SERVICE ADVISOR says something like "Oh don;t worry about that...they ALL do that " and blows you off. This happend to me with a Honda and I had to come back with the TSB and went to the GM who was pretty pissed off. It actually caused me to trade out the Honda for the Tacoma.
     
  2. Mar 25, 2011 at 10:13 AM
    #2
    Pugga

    Pugga Pasti-Dip Free 1983 - 2015... It was a good run

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    I agree to let them diagnose the problem first and only point out the TSB if you need to.

    The problem I've had with the dealership is their unwillingness to admit there is a problem. Then, even if I bring them the TSB, they won't fix it because, in their eyes, there isn't a problem to begin with. That's usually where the battle begins...
     
  3. Mar 25, 2011 at 10:16 AM
    #3
    OZ-T

    OZ-T Quite an experience to live in fear , isn't it ?

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    Agreed
     
  4. Mar 25, 2011 at 10:17 AM
    #4
    BlueT

    BlueT Well-Known Member

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    I have a suspicion your friend was Nissan mechanic :D
     
  5. Mar 25, 2011 at 10:18 AM
    #5
    Jester243

    Jester243 mod status????

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    I have only brought the TSB when they were less than helpful. I have been told that riding on the bumpstops is completely normal and there is nothing they can do, until I provided a TSB, then suddenly they could do something.
     
  6. Mar 25, 2011 at 10:25 AM
    #6
    paintdiddy

    paintdiddy Machine gun shits

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    I'd rather throw it in thier face before the decide to jerk me around.
     
  7. Mar 25, 2011 at 10:25 AM
    #7
    Kingfrog

    Kingfrog [OP] Well-Known Member

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    He was a mechanic for many dealerships and does all of the out of warranty work on my cars. Just did front brakes on the RAV yesterday for $50 labor. He is a good guy with a lot of information and owns an Access cab PreRunner 4banger Toyota Tacoma.

    He has shared stories about cars loaded with sludge that customer never did oil changes on in 20K miles. He really made it clear the hierarchy of Dealers Service depts. The Service advisor is the weakest link and works on commission for paid work. (which is why I learned to throw them a paid job PLUS the warranty work). An oil change even if I don't need. it. Its one hand washing the other. They won't turn away an oil change so they will have to add whatever else is on the paperwork to be diagnosed as well. Have to play the game.

    When the non tech Service Advisor DENIES a problem exists or is "common" to every vehicle, That is a poor SA and they have already received poor marks on any survey, That is when the TSB is necessary. The SA has no business diagnosing an issue at all. His job is to DOCUMENT issues and SELL non warranty work.
     
  8. Mar 25, 2011 at 10:26 AM
    #8
    Kingfrog

    Kingfrog [OP] Well-Known Member

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    And you run the risk of not having the TSB fix the problem and be handed an unfixed vehicle. Which is fine IF you understand why.
     
  9. Mar 25, 2011 at 10:39 AM
    #9
    ChompsterTacoma

    ChompsterTacoma Well-Known Member

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    Wow another tsb story :popcorn:
     
  10. Mar 25, 2011 at 10:41 AM
    #10
    RLDTACO

    RLDTACO Well-Known Member

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    x2 :facepalm:
     
  11. Mar 25, 2011 at 10:50 AM
    #11
    Kingfrog

    Kingfrog [OP] Well-Known Member

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    Easy to fix.........Unsubscribe.....:puke:

    If you need help let me know...
     
  12. Mar 25, 2011 at 12:12 PM
    #12
    buddywh1

    buddywh1 Well-Known Member

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    Two things wrong:

    First, in most TSB's there's a procedure to confirm the problem: that should be the time you talk about for them to diagnose the problem since they really shouldn't (and don't) simply believe me and leap into the work.

    The second: if only I could depend on them identify a TSB that fixes a problem on the vehicle I take to them. Even if I give them the EXACT symptoms as laid out on the TSB they won't get it.

    No, you pretty much have to take your vehicle with the problem easily demonstrated along with the TSB paper and tap them in the nose with it to get what you want done. Just be polite about it.

    I'm sorry for the poor mechanic, but I'm mostly interested in getting my truck fixed if I know of a TSB.
     
  13. Mar 25, 2011 at 5:25 PM
    #13
    skistoy

    skistoy Make mine a Double!

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    Wow , still going on abouth this. OK then:

    I agree with most,

    I went to the service dept for my first oil change and stated two things:

    my new radio has intermittant problems

    and my truck bottoms out when loaded with a dozen bags of mulch.

    I stated thats only about 500 lbs.

    they took it in back, about a 1.5 hours later it was ready.

    they did the oil change. Asked about the radio and rear end.

    they said they could not find any problems. explained the radio was intermittant,

    and i dont drive around with 500 lbs in the back.

    THEY HAD THE NERVE TO TELL ME THEY NEVER HEARD OF ANY OF THESE PROBLEMS.

    THE TSB HAD BEEN OUT FOR A COUPLE YEARS!!! AND THE RADIO WAS ALREADY

    WELL KNOWN. Even the parts guy told me " another radio, they're on back order".

    So basically, I dont give a shit what the dealers issue's are, who's gets paid by who,

    for what service, authorized by who, etc.

    When i walk in the dealership, I am customer, Im the person who should be satisfied.

    When i am straight up lied to, and i have to research the problem, and the sollution

    we have a major problem.

    So weather i have a TSB with me or not really doesnt matter. the work will be done!

    but thank you for clearing up exactly how many idiots work at the service department.
     
  14. Mar 25, 2011 at 5:46 PM
    #14
    joes06tacoma

    joes06tacoma Well-Known Member

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    Being a working stiff myself I understand where your neighbor is coming from. The problem comes when I drop off the truck and no one calls me back all day. Then I go down to pick it up and it's "sorry, nothing wrong with your truck that we can find". Since I know that's going to happen, I call around lunchtime and ask if they have found the problem. They say no, or they havn't gotten to my truck yet. Then I have to call again........ I have taken a vehicle in multiple times for the same issue trying to get them to duplicate it. If I have information in hand that may lead them in the right direction, I am going to give it to them. I wish I could trust them to do their job, but that's not always the case.

    Hate to be that way, especially since my own customer's (home appliance repair) sometimes take that attitude towards me. I hate them for it and it pisses me off to the point where I am tempted to put their parts on the "slow boat from china". I know the risk I am taking when I tell someone how to do their job, but I can't stand wasting multiple days of my time without my vehicle when they don't do their job effectively.
     
  15. Mar 25, 2011 at 6:05 PM
    #15
    Kingfrog

    Kingfrog [OP] Well-Known Member

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    I completely agree the TSB should be used. But give the tech a chance to diagnose just in case the issue is not the one indicated by the TSB.

    If the tech says nothing wrong we have grounds then to use the TSB and escalate the issue. Believe me, the dealership does NOT want thier customers calling Toyota with fixable issues. I am giving them the benifit of doubt UNTIL they do to me what Honda did and tell me.."All Toyotas do that" as if becasue "all" have shuddering power seats, it's acceptable.

    I understand your frustration although I drop of the truck and don;t care when it's ready as we have alternative transportation. I would rather they keep it over night and a day then wait hours for it. I won;t wait for more than an oil change.
    That said,,,,,I will be the first to bring a TSB in to the dealership in my back pocket. But will at least give them a chance to diagnose the issue. I may even leave it visible in the vehicle for the mechanic.

    This stuff is important because if they fight "in Warranty TSBs" why bother getting an extended Service contract where you have even less back up from Toyota.
     
  16. Mar 25, 2011 at 6:29 PM
    #16
    TacoDawgfan

    TacoDawgfan Hunker Down You Hairy Dawg!

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    I can understand from the tech's point of view, I dont want someone coming to work and telling me how to fix something when I usually know exactly what's wrong or will figure it out on my own. But why is that the customers problem? Shouldn't matter from our point of view, if we know there is a fix out there for the issue at hand we should be able to "suggest" or better yet "question" about it. And if it indeed turns out to be something different the dealer, tech, Toyota and the warranty co. or whoever else is involved should straighten it out among themselves and leave the customer out of it.
     
  17. Mar 25, 2011 at 6:35 PM
    #17
    joes06tacoma

    joes06tacoma Well-Known Member

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    OP- This is good info to have, thanks for posting. I was unaware that the techs lost money if we brought the TSB up at the time of initial service.

    The saying we have at work is "don't piss off the cook, you might end up with spit in your soup!" :D

    Thanks for letting us all understand a little better.
     
  18. Mar 25, 2011 at 7:18 PM
    #18
    TorenApart

    TorenApart Well-Known Member

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    Some thoughts for you...

    I work at a dealership (not a Toyota dealership and I actually work in accounting. We work closely with the warranty dept to do the monthly accruals necessary while we wait for the status on our warranty claims).

    Warranty work is good for the dealer. No, it isn't as good as an external customer coming in and needing maintenance, but it keeps service techs turning wrenches. This is good for the dealership because tech get paid the same no matter what. That means if there isn't a customer's vehicle to work on, they have idle time, or perhaps some on the job training, which are EXPENSES to the dealership. Warranty work ultimately helps reduce expenses by keeping techs busy.

    Most dealerships have a whole team that is responsible for submitting, managing and recovering as much of the warranty work as possible from the manufacturer. Nothing unusual about this...

    This is a flat rate job. Toyota pays it's dealerships $60/hour for warranty work as opposed to the regular shop rate around $100/hour. If they exceed the allocated hours for this work, it may be charged to a policy, flat rate labor variance, or goodwill account, all of which are a direct expense. The goal is to not exceed this, which is more than likely why tech don't like it as much.

    In order to claim a warranty work, you must have a work order with clearly defined warranty work. If a technician ignores other issues they identify during warranty work and doesn't tell the service manager/foreman, they are not doing their job. If they choose to complete that work, it should at least be done on a separate section of the work order and approved by the customer.

    Techs get paid either way. Sure, the dealership doesn't get to diagnose ( generate billable hours) the issue, however they do keep technicians busy.


    Techs get paid either way. Sure, the dealership has a higher profit on external customer billable work, but it's in the best interest of the dealer to perform warranty work and they are actually measured on the amount of warranty work they perform on the new vehicles they sell.

    I'm sorry, but this doesn't make sense. If you know your truck has an issue, don't waste your's or the dealerships time. Take it in and get it fixed. If they find other things, they will let you know and you'll probably have to pay for it.


    When I had an issue like this, I called Toyota directly and filed a complaint. It was mostly down hill from there. This would be my recommendation.
     
  19. Mar 25, 2011 at 8:34 PM
    #19
    Kingfrog

    Kingfrog [OP] Well-Known Member

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    THANK YOU for those clarifications. Are you saying the mechanics are paid on a salary and not job based or both?

    I hope a tech chimes in and a service advisor. It would be good to know the process so we do not have to approach the Service dept like some here indicated...extremely defensive...TSB in hand beating them with it.

    I will take mine in. I did not buy ,my truck at the dealership (because they did not have a selection of used Tacoma's at the time) I have purchased a couple cars there though. IMO SERVICE is more important than sales.

    If a place has a good service dept and is 100 miles away I am likely to purchase there first rather than local.
     
  20. Mar 25, 2011 at 10:15 PM
    #20
    TorenApart

    TorenApart Well-Known Member

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    Technicians are paid hourly. It doesn't matter if they are working on a vehicle or not. They are on the clock, they get paid. It is extremely important that dealerships keep tech productivity high because of this.


    Service is by far the most profitable division of a dealership and has the most influence on brand loyalty/customer satisfaction after the sell. The dealership I work for aims to have about 80% of our TOTAL expenses absorbed by the PROFIT from service.
     
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