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women in combat/battle

Discussion in 'Military' started by jmg256, Jan 23, 2013.

  1. Jan 26, 2013 at 10:38 AM
    #41
    Mr. Brown

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    I agree that standards must be upheld, but the thought that women are the only reason standards are lowered is a fallacy. I remember when the Army's PT test was lowered because the guys weren't passing the test in high enough numbers.

    The PT test is the minimum anyways. The teams and units I worked with would not have settled for the minimum and neither should you or yours.
     
  2. Jan 26, 2013 at 11:44 AM
    #42
    TIPICOTACO

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  3. Jan 26, 2013 at 3:00 PM
    #43
    frycook

    frycook Well-Known Member

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    Exactly...

    this guy sums up all my reasons for why i am against this... He is more eloquent than me and I would just turn this into a rant...
    http://youtu.be/fy--whDNNKk
     
  4. Jan 26, 2013 at 3:26 PM
    #44
    Fenwick1993

    Fenwick1993 Hillbilly

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    I'm all for it- they just gotta be able to keep up. As long as they can meet the same standards that the men have to meet, then I have no problem with it.
     
  5. Jan 26, 2013 at 4:50 PM
    #45
    KodiakToyTRD

    KodiakToyTRD Well-Known Member

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    You must not work in the same Coast Guard that I did....

    :p

    Whenever I administered the PFT, everyone that wasn't in shape was like, So uh, what do I have to do to pass?
     
  6. Jan 26, 2013 at 5:00 PM
    #46
    Brunes

    Brunes abides. Staff Member

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    I guess I misunderstood your statement in light of the conversation we are having...My bad!! I don't think anyone WANTS family members to have to to war...but that isn't really the discussion here.

    People are going to war...and telling a female that she can't possibly qualify just because she is female doesn't make sense. I know plenty of women who could beat my ass and/or keep up with special operators PT tests and/or keep cool under combat pressure, and I know guys that can't. It should not be a gender divide...It should be a skills divide.

    So-Have you served?? I don't see a civil service emblem on your profile...so I'm curious.

    And lets be honest...There are plenty of very public failures in judgement from the "front lines" in recent history and centuries of war atrocities by all sorts of front line warriors. They should certainly have some say in it, but closing out everyone elses input doesn't make sense.
     
  7. Jan 26, 2013 at 5:03 PM
    #47
    Mr. Brown

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    Ha, weren't you Alaska PD? I've seen some tier 3 units like that. It made me sad :pout:

    I was lucky enough never to have been stationed somewhere that I had to deal with the non-motivated types. If I have to one day, I'm lucky enough to be in a position to change it.
     
  8. Jan 26, 2013 at 5:06 PM
    #48
    KodiakToyTRD

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    I would send out the email, PFT coming up!!!

    Then I'd see maybe one or two 1st classes in the gym once about a week before hand "getting ready".

    Really guys?
     
  9. Jan 26, 2013 at 5:17 PM
    #49
    Mr. Brown

    Mr. Brown Well-Known Member

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  10. Jan 29, 2013 at 9:21 AM
    #50
    Beadwindow

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    Maybe this is a non-issue for me, for my entire career we've allowed women in Combat Arms. In fact, they've been permitted for 22 years.

    I'm of the opinion that as long as you can pass the standards, I don't care what you have between your legs, you can do the job.

    My last deployment was mostly spent doing dismounted ops in the Arghandab river valley. We had a couple of women in the Sqn I worked with, and they were both a Combat Arms trade. The humped the same patrols as us, carried the same combat loads, slept in the same holes and fought in the same fights.

    Yeah, some women can't do the jobs. I also know men who can't. I'll never take anything away from someone who wants to do the job, and has the mental and physical ability to do it.
     
  11. Jan 29, 2013 at 5:16 PM
    #51
    0LyRunner

    0LyRunner Well-Known Member

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    It would be awesome if the world was as easy as you put it Beadwindow. But unit cohesion will go to an all time low with girls sleeping with different dudes and jealousy issues.

    It would be cool if this could happen but too many other problems would happen for me to approve this.
     
  12. Jan 29, 2013 at 5:40 PM
    #52
    Mr. Brown

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    What you're missing is that the Canadian military and many others are already doing this and it has worked for them for some time now. All the reasons people are coming up with are just moral defense mechanisms thought up to justify their negative opinions of women. The bottom line is that it works for other countries and it can work for us too.

    If you're really fighting for equality, justice, and freedom then think of this as another battle. If it's hard to adjust, remember that "America the free" is only a dream for these women. They are not free and they are not equal. If women want to fight, and possibly die, for our country, shouldn't we fight for them too?
     
  13. Jan 29, 2013 at 7:34 PM
    #53
    TacPro45

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    See that all the time!!!
     
  14. Jan 30, 2013 at 4:14 AM
    #54
    0LyRunner

    0LyRunner Well-Known Member

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    It's not justification, it's how the infantry works. Everyone I talk to in my company feels the same way. We make sexual jokes 24/7 and mess with each other as brothers would do. We can't be this close nit with woman around and us getting equal opportunity complaints (EO) by femals.

    Maybe I'm just old fashioned then but I think I would like the woman of America to be protected and the men that are willing to put there life on the line should do so. If you can't be on the frontline as a man then it's not your problem to worry about.

    My other argument is there is no pt test to drag me across a field but MOST woman would not be able to drag me at 180LBS plus 30LBS for my gear out of the kill zone. Maybe some men can't but my odds are better.... And I'm one of the smaller guys in my unit.
     
  15. Jan 30, 2013 at 5:18 AM
    #55
    inthebag87

    inthebag87 Active Member

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    Like every coin there are two sides. I see the need as a man to inherently want to keep women away from danger and it must be frustrating to have people think that that feeling is coming from a bad place.
    I guess the real concern comes from the adjustments that will be made to accommodate the new situation. I can't argue with a guys who is concerned about who is watching his ass i would have the same concern regardless of gender. it will be interesting to see who this plays out in the long run. I know this situation exists in other country but america is a hell of an animal.

    'Merica!
     
  16. Jan 30, 2013 at 8:46 AM
    #56
    0LyRunner

    0LyRunner Well-Known Member

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    Yes, thank you. Even if you're not picking sides... At least you understood my point and maybe made it sound a little clearer.

    It's true, I'm not meaning to put any of this in bad light. Just real concerns in my mind.
     
  17. Jan 30, 2013 at 10:35 AM
    #57
    Beadwindow

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    I definitely see where you're coming from. We call those kinds of chicks "groundsheets". But honestly, I've never seen big issues at the level that you'd think. Most girls I've worked or served with have been one of the guys, joking and smoking with the rest of us. And I'm about as PC as 1930's marketing. In my troop, the only thing off limits for jokes is wives and kids. And we do have fraternization rules when it comes to relationships in the same chain of command.

    As far as jealousy and fighting over women, I've seen it happen about as much guys fighting over chicks at the local off-base bar, or sleeping with exes. And I haven't seen it very much.

    Personally, I think it all depend on the professionalism of the girls who want to do the job. The ones I know who are good want to leave no room for question and try to exceed all standards. And really, most of the ones who truly want to be combat arms want to do the job. They aren't just doing it for the sake of saying that they can do it as a girl. Besides, it's funny as hell when one of the girls tells a guy who's complaining to get the sand out of his vagina.

    As far as physical demands, our Battlefield fitness test has the same standard for everyone, and does include a casualty drag of a standard weight. Things are different everywhere.

    I can definitely see it being a culture shock, and I do understand the concerns at the first line. I know it was a big thing at the Battalions when it first started happening here. And maybe it's a cultural difference between you guys and us. I can't say either way. But I've seen it work throughout my career.

    As a man, yeah, it seemed to hit me harder when I lost a female comrade as opposed to a male one. Maybe that's the genetics of being a man. But either way, we carried on and did the job, and remembered the ones who gave their lives doing their duty, regardless of sex.
     
  18. Jan 30, 2013 at 3:13 PM
    #58
    sammy87

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    When I was in, I def knew some chics that could hack anything more than some dudes I knew. But those chics were the minority of the ones I knew. There is no doubt that there are chics capable of doing combat missions. There are dudes that cant. But my concern would be the jealously issues with a chic hooking up with a dude, and a girl walking into the locker room environment and getting offended. Then it becomes a shit storm. And its not like there isn't a sexual assualt problem in the military to begin with. I felt like that was half my training.

    The other issue is I feel this is more political than anything. There is no need for women in combat. We are not in a war where we need bodies, we are not being invaded, these are not desperate times. So its most likely a chic wanted to check the box get a combat role and make a promotion and wrote her congeress person about it causing a stink. Now its a personal agenda for both parties. Other countries such as Israel, face a threat in daily life and its part of their duty to serve. Same with teh Swiss but there not fighting anyone. There was a Russian sniper in WW2 that was a chic that had more kills than anyone on the eastern front. But once again those were desperate times.
     
  19. Jan 30, 2013 at 3:19 PM
    #59
    jhodge83

    jhodge83 Any dog under 50# is a cat and cats are useless... Staff Member

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    wat?
    I dont think there will be too much of an issue. Only a certain kind of chick will even want to do it, let alone attempt it, and let alone pass. Same thing when chicks were finally allowed to enter the Citadel.
     
  20. Jan 30, 2013 at 4:22 PM
    #60
    0LyRunner

    0LyRunner Well-Known Member

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    Very well put my friend. +1 for you
    Thank you for the great discussion
     
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