1. Welcome to Tacoma World!

    You are currently viewing as a guest! To get full-access, you need to register for a FREE account.

    As a registered member, you’ll be able to:
    • Participate in all Tacoma discussion topics
    • Communicate privately with other Tacoma owners from around the world
    • Post your own photos in our Members Gallery
    • Access all special features of the site

women in combat/battle

Discussion in 'Military' started by jmg256, Jan 23, 2013.

  1. Jan 31, 2013 at 2:23 PM
    #61
    BuzzardsGottaEat

    BuzzardsGottaEat "Pick up some speed.. You'll make it."

    Joined:
    Apr 27, 2011
    Member:
    #55669
    Messages:
    6,566
    Gender:
    Male
    First Name:
    Chaz
    South Dakota
    Vehicle:
    93 Pickup 4x4 [22R-E] 5MT
    OME suspension, LCE Performance parts, Konigs, etc. [see build]
    Their mandatory service is legit and their commandos are awesome war fighting machines but that whole idea of their women being in the infantry, while true, is not being portrayed accurately.

    1.) They've been doing it for a long time and have the kinks worked out. This does not suggest that we can just suddenly do the same. I mentioned above that if women were integrated in during a time of peace, slowly, MAYBE there could be a possibility.

    2.) Their women serve mostly in roles just like ours. They're called combat supporting positions. So we already do that and tons of women are war heroes because of it. But they do not, day in and day out, live the life of a grunt.

    3.) I don't remember the numbers but its a small amount, something like 3% that actually are in their infantry special forces whatever units. And the ones they are in are largely female and very good from what I've seen/heard but again, that is not comparable to us in many ways.

    Women go in, combat effectiveness goes down, people die. There are a hundred reasons to not allow it at this time, none of which have a single thing to do with "gender equality."

    Also, in my personal experience I have never met or worked with a single female Marine who didn't get all emotional when yelled at and even worse, who wasn't emotionally scarred much differently than men when they faced traumatizing experiences.

    Too many reasons to not let them in now.
    Maybe over time, lots of time, but not while we're fighting. Not while we will pay for it in lives lost.
     
  2. Jan 31, 2013 at 4:48 PM
    #62
    Trifenix

    Trifenix Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 11, 2011
    Member:
    #49090
    Messages:
    1,234
    Gender:
    Male
    so cal
    Vehicle:
    99 LT 5 lug Taco
    Im curious if a frontline woman who weighs 130lbs sporting full gear can effectively carry a wounded 180lb male in full gear out of a danger zone with bullets and bombs flying? Im sure there are a few hardcore GI Janes out there but ill bet most cannot. Heavy can carry heavy or light. Light cannot carry heavy.

    There was also the issue of cleanliness and being a female grunt hanging with a bunch of guys who have not seen females for a long time...

    I agree with previous posters. If they can perform the same as men and accept the risk then all good.
     
  3. Jan 31, 2013 at 4:58 PM
    #63
    BuzzardsGottaEat

    BuzzardsGottaEat "Pick up some speed.. You'll make it."

    Joined:
    Apr 27, 2011
    Member:
    #55669
    Messages:
    6,566
    Gender:
    Male
    First Name:
    Chaz
    South Dakota
    Vehicle:
    93 Pickup 4x4 [22R-E] 5MT
    OME suspension, LCE Performance parts, Konigs, etc. [see build]
    There are those who can perform, and those who cannot. I don't see this as the end all be all of the discussion. Not irrelevant, but hardly even the tip of the spear of this discussion IMO.

    Say a woman can carry a ruck sack, machine gun, and a buddy, and jump walls and canals, and not freak out when she has to keep putting rounds down range rather than look at her blown to pieces comrade. Does this adress a single other issue mentioned in this thread?
     
  4. Jan 31, 2013 at 6:33 PM
    #64
    Redfox1

    Redfox1 'Stralia! Riding Roo's and wrangling koalas

    Joined:
    Oct 10, 2009
    Member:
    #24099
    Messages:
    1,595
    Gender:
    Male
    First Name:
    Conner
    Santa Paula, CA and SLO
    Vehicle:
    09 Prerunner Sport TRD
    Browning Floor Mats, 275/70/17 BFG All-Terrain T/A's, Procomp 7089 wheels,Rear Spring TSB, Bilstein 5100's, LED roof light, seatbelt chime disabled, CB, UWS Toolbox,
    I suppose I see what you mean. Maybe there needs to be more input by the been there done that crew then. I just feel like people who don't have the right experience wouldnt make a very good decision compared to someone who has been in the position that women will now be able to occupy. You're are correct however on having input outside of that 'frontline" group being necessary.
     
  5. Feb 2, 2013 at 8:07 AM
    #65
    soldierguy

    soldierguy Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 9, 2012
    Member:
    #88652
    Messages:
    66
    Gender:
    Male
    Colorado Springs, CO
    Vehicle:
    '12 Access Cab 4X4 V6 6MT
    Except there are no front lines anymore. There's inside the wire, and outside the wire. Women are already outside the wire all the time...Female Engagement Teams, truck drivers, mechanics, intel Soldiers, advisors, pilots, etc. Women are outside the wire all the time, and are subject to the same IEDs, snipers, firefights, etc as anyone else.

    Much of the concern is over logistics stuff, and honestly, any logistician worth a damn would be offended and consider it a challenge if you told them that they couldn't get adequate showers, latrines, and housing to any location on earth.

    The physical performance issue will sort itself out. Those who can meet or exceed the standards will make it. Those who can't, won't. Just like with guys.

    The job performance is a moot point also. If she passes the training and meets the standards, then she's qualified to perform the duties. Women are capable of shooting, moving, communicating, and lifting heavy things.

    I think the larger issue is a mindset and teambuilding issue...whether or not a female will be accepted as part of an infantry squad or tank crew. She's passed the standards, the logisticians have provided adequate facilities, and now she's joining a team. The question is, will she be accepted on that team? The answer can't be predicted based on data and stats...it'll boil down to her and her teammates, and their personalities, beliefs, and prejudices. In truth, it's the same with guys...I've seen guys not really click with their team and be excluded, and it had nothing to do with performance...it was all personalities.
     
  6. Feb 2, 2013 at 9:05 AM
    #66
    0LyRunner

    0LyRunner Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 16, 2012
    Member:
    #77026
    Messages:
    300
    Gender:
    Male
    First Name:
    Steven
    DuPont, WA
    Vehicle:
    2009 PreRunner DCSB
    ProComp ES9000 and ES6000 3' Lift with Rear AAL, 16" Tuff A/T's, with 295/75/R16 BFG A/T KO's, Satoshi TRD Signature Grill, Spyder Halo-Projector Headlights, EZ Down Tailgate, EZ Lift Hood, WeatherTech Floor Liners, Sockmonkey All Black Bed Side Decals & 3RD Brake Light TRD Sticker, Engine Cover Custom Painted, Red Calipers, Undercover Classic, [Plasti-Dipped: Lower Valence, Fog Light Housing, Emblems, Rims], Side Steps, Center Console & Glove Box Divider, Seat belt ding (off).

    Yeah, I've stated before that females are already in "combat" (outside the wire) I agree. My point, and kinda like you stated was that it will break down the morale and unity with what an Infantry unit has.

    Like my favorite artist sayed "No Woman, No Cry"
    It's just easier to not throw woman into the mix IMO.
     
  7. Feb 2, 2013 at 10:13 AM
    #67
    soldierguy

    soldierguy Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 9, 2012
    Member:
    #88652
    Messages:
    66
    Gender:
    Male
    Colorado Springs, CO
    Vehicle:
    '12 Access Cab 4X4 V6 6MT
    Except I didn't say that women would break down morale and unity. Some guys can break down morale and unity. A squad leader on a power trip can do that. A 1SG or Commander can do that. Yes, a woman can do that too. But I still think that as long as the performance and capability is there, it's less of a gender issue than a personality, mindset & teambuilding issue.

    There will be issues, no doubt. Someone will get stupid and sexually harass or assault a female, and it'll be all over the news. Or a female will decide to try to make some extra cash on a deployment, and screw things up for all. But the rules are already in place to help prevent that (and punish those who do it), and most people, most of the time, follow the rules.

    If you google "Tuckman's stages of group development" you'll see why I'm focused in on the teambuilding piece of it. People are remarkably adaptable, and can figure out how to make things work. This is just another thing to figure out and make work.

    EDIT: I've got no dog in the fight on this. Next week is my last week in uniform (I'm retiring). I neither support nor am against this new policy. I view it simply as a fact...something that has to be figured out and made to work. And in the end, that's what we do in the military: we figure things out and make things work.
     
  8. Feb 2, 2013 at 10:23 AM
    #68
    a.alderson

    a.alderson Member

    Joined:
    Jan 29, 2013
    Member:
    #96392
    Messages:
    24
    Gender:
    Male
    First Name:
    Adam
    Yucaipa, Ca
    Vehicle:
    04 PreRunner V4
    Cool "Jurassic Park" decal in rear window.
    Alright, I'll throw my 2 cents in here. I think it's fair. Beyond that, why shouldn't every country utilize every resource available to them? If a woman can meet the requirements, then let her fight.

    Secondly, let's forget the mythology behind the people and think about how bad ass they really were: Joan of Arc, the Amazons, the all female league of assassins used in ancient middle east whose name I cannot seem to recall...

    And C: do you want soldiers who act in a programmed, emotion-free manner to get the job done, or do you want people who have mastered the arts of grudge-holding, mental warfare and who possess the natural abilities of mystifying men to the point where we openly admit our wrong-doing and begin to try to make it up to them?

    ...Seriously, though, I think it's a great idea.
     
  9. Feb 2, 2013 at 2:34 PM
    #69
    Trifenix

    Trifenix Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 11, 2011
    Member:
    #49090
    Messages:
    1,234
    Gender:
    Male
    so cal
    Vehicle:
    99 LT 5 lug Taco
    Maybe we can have a crack psychic team of women that can mentally degrade the enemy to the point where they say "i give up. You win. You are right, I am wrong." :)
     
  10. Feb 2, 2013 at 3:12 PM
    #70
    puddle

    puddle Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 6, 2013
    Member:
    #94618
    Messages:
    141
    Gender:
    Male
    First Name:
    Kris
    Paso Robles, Ca.
    Vehicle:
    2004 Double Cab
    OME lift, Skid Row Skid,Trail Gear dress up kit, Gray wire Mod, N some stickers
    Kinda the same but different:

    Many years ago the Coast Guard made a "Big how to do" by having an all female Boat Crew, Cox'n, Eng, & crewmen. Stan team shows up and during the Man Overboard Drill, they could not lift Oscar over the gunwale into the Boat. Females do not have the upper body strength! OK generally they do not. Now I am not saying they should not be on Boat Crews, but if I was the only dude on that boat and fell in the drink and they could not recover me, I would be a little pissed.
    I know it's not combat, but thats all I have to offer. I had females in Iraq, on ABOT, but that was a little/lot different than on the beach.
     
  11. Feb 2, 2013 at 3:23 PM
    #71
    Boerseun

    Boerseun Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 25, 2011
    Member:
    #60538
    Messages:
    3,282
    Gender:
    Male
    First Name:
    Ferdie
    Sarasota, Florida
    Vehicle:
    02 PreRunner DoubleCab TRD
    Bull bar, nerf bars, bed extender, tonneu cover, bug deflector, wish list,....
    This. My wife can train them - they will be killer then.:D
     
  12. Feb 2, 2013 at 4:57 PM
    #72
    BuzzardsGottaEat

    BuzzardsGottaEat "Pick up some speed.. You'll make it."

    Joined:
    Apr 27, 2011
    Member:
    #55669
    Messages:
    6,566
    Gender:
    Male
    First Name:
    Chaz
    South Dakota
    Vehicle:
    93 Pickup 4x4 [22R-E] 5MT
    OME suspension, LCE Performance parts, Konigs, etc. [see build]
    I disagree with both of these statements entirely.

    ell my men there was just inside and outside the wire or that they got more than a bucket of well water and a hole in the ground for a piss tube.
     
  13. Feb 4, 2013 at 5:22 AM
    #73
    soldierguy

    soldierguy Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 9, 2012
    Member:
    #88652
    Messages:
    66
    Gender:
    Male
    Colorado Springs, CO
    Vehicle:
    '12 Access Cab 4X4 V6 6MT
    I'm not sure what you're saying about inside the wire and outside the wire.

    And I never said that every location did have adequate showers, latrines, housing, etc. What I said was that any logistician would be offended if someone told him he couldn't get those things pretty much anywhere. If it's a leadership priority to get something to a particular location and the resources are available, then I'm convinced a logistician can make it happen. And now, this stuff will become a leadership priority. In your case, it sounds like your leadership thought that piss tubes were adequate, and in a male-only environment, they can be perfectly adequate.

    I've been on a couple of male-only teams that lived and worked well away from other Americans (in other words we were not on a FOB). The only thing that prevented us from having females on the team were inadequate facilities, because it wasn't a leadership priority to get females on my teams and then supply the necessary resources to make it happen.
     
  14. Feb 4, 2013 at 7:15 AM
    #74
    BuzzardsGottaEat

    BuzzardsGottaEat "Pick up some speed.. You'll make it."

    Joined:
    Apr 27, 2011
    Member:
    #55669
    Messages:
    6,566
    Gender:
    Male
    First Name:
    Chaz
    South Dakota
    Vehicle:
    93 Pickup 4x4 [22R-E] 5MT
    OME suspension, LCE Performance parts, Konigs, etc. [see build]
    Not trying to start anything. I re-read my post and realized I sounded somewhat crass. My bad, not my intentions, it's hard to "type" out things without doing so ha

    I simply meant to point out that there are still people who are "on the front lines" in the effect that they are pushing further into enemy territory and taking compounds to sleep in and fortify as they go. Also that the Marine Corps doesn't have the budget or the means to do a lot of what other branches like our brothers in the Army can. Our unit pushed south over many miles and peed in tubes and there was no "in the wire" kind of thinking is all. I was simply meaning to point out that while there may be a majority of places that hygiene wouldn't be an issue, there are still "infantrymen" (which is what we're discussing) who don't have those accommodations and admin and logistics can't keep up with them.
     
  15. Feb 7, 2013 at 7:13 PM
    #75
    river rat 69

    river rat 69 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 6, 2010
    Member:
    #47249
    Messages:
    16,592
    Gender:
    Male
    First Name:
    Jim
    Orlando, Fla., Green side of the grass
    Vehicle:
    007, trd, sr5, fmf.
    NO Chrome,3" NFab's steps,TRD skid,Wet okie's.011 grill, k&n,5100's,All this comes right off when the old lady says let's go get a NEW ONE!!!
    I just do not see combat barbie working.Packing heavy gear all day and where will she sleep at night. Also what if some 300 lb.er is down can she drag him to cover..Also guys are going to look out for her more what happens to the other guys and places not being watched now?? Lots of ????? that no one has the answers too now!!
     
To Top