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Old 01-26-2014, 09:49 PM   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tooter View Post
And the intake manifold spacer added a couple more of each to make 137hp and 160tq.

So from 119 hp to 137 hp is 18 hp is 15% increase in horsepower...

...and from 133 tq to 160tq is a 20% increase in torque and that higher peak torque is reached 1,100 rpm sooner, at only 2,900 rpm instead of the 3,800 rpm peak on a bone stock engine...

...and this is with just the stock ECU, no tuning, and cheap regular 87 octane pump gas, so I'm really pleased with how this particular combination of mods has worked out.
I wish you would test Doug Thorley's with that same setup.
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Old 01-26-2014, 10:16 PM   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by .MarkyMark. View Post
I wish you would test Doug Thorley's with that same setup.

That would be an interesting experiment.
I chose LCE over DT because the tubes are a way longer.
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Old 01-26-2014, 10:21 PM   #23
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I am running the AFE cold air intake. No noticeable gains other than noise. In 1st and 2nd at high rpms it sounds like a pissed off go cart but 3-5 sound pretty good. When driving intake temp is with in 2-3 degrees of outside temp.

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Old 01-26-2014, 11:27 PM   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tooter View Post
That would be an interesting experiment.
I chose LCE over DT because the tubes are a way longer.
I guess I'm just worried about the whole emissions thing. I like the fact that the DT's are CARB exempt. I mean I guess it wouldn't hurt to just take them off every time, but what a pain. Most of all, I want more power. For lowering the torque curve, I think the DT's might prove better on the dyno... in theory about the whole 4-1 vs. 4-2-1 thing.
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Old 01-26-2014, 11:35 PM   #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tooter View Post
That would be an interesting experiment.
I chose LCE over DT because the tubes are a way longer.
the LCE looks like a well designed header and your dyno results show a significant increase in torque at a LOWER rpm. Can't ask for more than that imo.
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Old 01-26-2014, 11:46 PM   #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by .MarkyMark. View Post
I guess I'm just worried about the whole emissions thing. I like the fact that the DT's are CARB exempt. I mean I guess it wouldn't hurt to just take them off every time, but what a pain. Most of all, I want more power. For lowering the torque curve, I think the DT's might prove better on the dyno... in theory about the whole 4-1 vs. 4-2-1 thing.
I agree with your concerns about CA smog BS...and taking off the header would be a PITA!

The old school theory of a try-y header making more torque than a 4-1 is not always accurate. It's more about header design..equal length tubes, merge collectors, tube size, velocity, scavenging. There is a lot of science behind it. Talk with any good header builder and you will be shocked with all the variables involved.
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Old 01-26-2014, 11:59 PM   #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by crawl View Post
I agree with your concerns about CA smog BS...and taking off the header would be a PITA! The old school theory of a try-y header making more torque than a 4-1 is not always accurate. It's more about header design..equal length tubes, merge collectors, tube size, velocity, scavenging. There is a lot of science behind it. Talk with any good header builder and you will be shocked with all the variables involved.
I imagine you are right about all the variables you've listed. I am nonetheless interested in the result of a DT header under the same circumstances. Speaking of which, tooter, I have an idea. I'll buy the DT's relatively soon and let's throw them on your truck to dyno them before I perform the install on mine.
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Old 01-27-2014, 12:10 AM   #28
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^^we all live relatively close to each other.. lets setup a dyno day
plus i wanna see that volant intake in person! very nice setup
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Old 01-27-2014, 12:21 AM   #29
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^^we all live relatively close to each other.. lets setup a dyno day
plus i wanna see that volant intake in person! very nice setup
Thanks, I'm down. Tooter?
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Old 01-27-2014, 09:13 AM   #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by .MarkyMark. View Post
I imagine you are right about all the variables you've listed. I am nonetheless interested in the result of a DT header under the same circumstances. Speaking of which, tooter, I have an idea. I'll buy the DT's relatively soon and let's throw them on your truck to dyno them before I perform the install on mine.

You can't throw them on my truck because my engine only holds one!


Sure, I'll offer my truck to be used as a test bed as long as it's done at HK Motorsports Dyno Shop in Van Nuys, it's done on Saturday because of work, and I don't pay for the dyno.


We can swap headers at my house when everything is cold. The truck will need to be driven around some so that the ECU can relearn the new parameters. Then it's off to Harry's for testing as he's only about 12 miles away. We'll use my runs with both the header and intake manifold spacer for comparison so I don't have to remove the spacer. The only rub is that since the last runs, I've removed the stock exhaust and installed a custom MagnaFlow cat back. So that is likely to skew the results. But if you guys are up for it, I am.


I have another broader question that gets to the heart of the matter:


Since you're considering their header, why not ask Doug Thorley to release their own dyno tests for their own header?


It's impossible for them to design and build products without logging before and after dyno runs. I chose LCE because I'm old school where long tubes always trump shorties on low end torque, while shorties make more top end horsepower. Just something to consider...




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Old 01-27-2014, 09:22 AM   #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by crawl View Post
I agree with your concerns about CA smog BS...and taking off the header would be a PITA!

I'm hoping that LCE gets a CARB number by the time I'm up for testing. They have them for some of their other headers. The LCE header on my 1996 Taco had it. I ran it for ten years and it passed all the smog tests with flying colors.

Quote:
The old school theory of a try-y header making more torque than a 4-1 is not always accurate...

That's because there's another old school theory that long tubes make more torque than short tubes.


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Old 01-27-2014, 09:25 AM   #33
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I've got a Volant Scoop I'd sell for $50 +shipping. Had it on and then decided to change to a snorkel.



Now that's a good deal.
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Old 01-27-2014, 09:52 AM   #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tooter View Post
I'm hoping that LCE gets a CARB number by the time I'm up for testing. They have them for some of their other headers. The LCE header on my 1996 Taco had it. I ran it for ten years and it passed all the smog tests with flying colors.
yep. my Honda header always passes the sniffer.. its the visual with no carb # that does me in

Quote:
That's because there's another old school theory that long tubes make more torque than short tubes.
ha
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Old 01-27-2014, 10:28 PM   #35
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Originally Posted by tooter View Post
Sure, I'll offer my truck to be used as a test bed as long as it's done at HK Motorsports Dyno Shop in Van Nuys, it's done on Saturday because of work, and I don't pay for the dyno.
I think that sounds good... Did you by chance happen to run a stock dyno with your a/c and power steering hooked up?

Quote:
Originally Posted by tooter View Post
I have another broader question that gets to the heart of the matter:
Since you're considering their header, why not ask Doug Thorley to release their own dyno tests for their own header? It's impossible for them to design and build products without logging before and after dyno runs.
Yea, you're right. I think I just love the idea of having a "no hassle" gain.
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Old 01-28-2014, 09:17 AM   #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by .MarkyMark. View Post
I think that sounds good... Did you by chance happen to run a stock dyno with your a/c and power steering hooked up?

No. I used URD's 2.7 baseline dyno for their supercharger. Then I did runs with these mods:


Injen intake
LCE header
Stock exhaust
No PS no AC


Then the latest dyno was with these mods:


tooter II.VII intake manifold spacer
Injen intake
LCE header
Stock exhaust
No PS no AC


So any results will only be relative to changing the header from LCE to DT. But it will also include the MagnaFlow catback because I no longer have the stock exhaust. That extra change is likely to cloud the results, so give it some thought before you decide to do it.


It's not easy to get an absolute apples to apples comparative runs unless you have control over all of the conditions. I needed to log accurate results with the intake manifold spacer as absolutely the only change, so that it would be fair and honest. So all of the other conditions had to remain exactly the same regardless of what they were right down to using the same dyno machine.

Quote:
Yea, you're right. I think I just love the idea of having a "no hassle" gain.
It's up to you. I'm willing to do it. If any other guys wanted to come and run their trucks, we could do a dyno day.








On the other hand it's cheaper and far less trouble to simply contact DT and have them provide you with documentation of the gains for their own products.


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Old 01-28-2014, 10:08 AM   #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tooter View Post
If any other guys wanted to come and run their trucks, we could do a dyno day.
Im down.. van nuys is close to valencia

Quote:
On the other hand it's cheaper and far less trouble to simply contact DT and have them provide you with documentation of the gains for their own products.
I just found the post below from this thread http://www.tacomaworld.com/forum/4-c...ml#post4207411

Quote:
Originally Posted by SVHANC View Post
Just to stir the pot a little more, here are links to the dyno results for DT vs. Stock from the DT website and the DT vs. LCE from the LCE website. I tried posting the charts but it choked on the size.

http://www.dougthorleyheaders.com/vi...400.THY509.BMP

http://www.toyotacatalog.net/M1WebGe...rdynochart.jpg

I guess it is all in who you believe, but LCE is charging a premium that may be justified only in build quality that is largely irrelevant once you close the hood.
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Old 01-28-2014, 11:12 AM   #38
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Thanks so much for reposting that useful bit of information. That's a great help.


Notice that the DT header makes it's torque peak at 4,000 rpm.







Whereas my LCE header makes its torque peak at 3,150 rpm. (it's the blue run without the tooter manifold spacer)





So right here is definitive proof that the LCE 4-1 long tube header lowers the torque peak more than the DT 4-2-1 short tube header.




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Old 01-28-2014, 11:21 AM   #39
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Waste of money. Won't result in any performance gain.
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Old 01-28-2014, 11:44 AM   #40
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Originally Posted by taco2010trd View Post
Waste of money. Won't result in any performance gain.

Stock truck
Stock intake
Stock header
Stock exhaust


119hp 133tq



My truck
Injen intake
tooter spacer
LCE header
Stock exhaust


137hp 160tq


18 more horsepower and 27 more foot pounds of torque with the torque peak lowered by 1,100 rpm cost me a total of $938. I actually think that's a pretty good deal just for bolting on three simple accessories.


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