Shackle Flip Support Group

geekhouse23 · Jun 17, 2019

ragincajun35 said: ↑

there should be a support group that meets weekly

"Hi my name is ____ and i used to have a shackle flip kit on my 'overland rig'"
Click to expand...

geekhouse23 · Jun 17, 2019

Hi my name is geekhouse23 and i used to have a shackle flip kit on my 'overland rig' AND IT RUINED MY LIFE (overdramatic)

geekhouse23[OP] said: ↑

SHACKLE FLIP VS. BAMF HANGERS REVIEW/THOUGHTS/PLANS

...

In short, I am not sure that I like the look/stance and I think the shackle flip ruined my life!! (over-dramatic)

*DISCLAIMER - I was/am FULLY aware that I would have lost height in the rear going from a shackle flip to an inverted shackle, however, I didn't think it would be THIS drastic or noticeable. (The shackle flip ruined my life.)

I have had the shackle flip for about 3 years and the BAMF hangers for a little over a week. I keep going back and forth in my mind about going back. Part of it is because I have had the shackle flip for so long that I am just accustom to how the truck looks in the rear. The other part of me that tells me to leave it is because, I am not sure that my shackle flip was ever set up correctly. I believe the shackle should have been mounted in the front most hole. I probably would have lost .5" - 1" with the shackle being more at a 45* angle versus 70* seen below. Here is the stock length ATO
shackle at rest, bed unloaded with a topper and high clearance steel bumper with swingout:

Here is, also, the best side by side comparison of the shackle flip (left) versus the BAMF kit (right) taken weeks apart (both with an empty bed, topper and high clearance steel bumper with swingout:

I have no actual numbers from before (kicking myself for it) but I would estimate roughly 1.5" - 2" of height lost in the rear. I should still be at 3" of lift in the rear, and the truck appears to look level; even slightly raked just not as pronounced as before. I like rake. I really do. Pics below:

I don't believe that my leafs are worn that would prompt a "necessity" replacement:

Here are some pros and cons that I can think of/confirm after a little over a week of the new setup:

PROS:
- smoother ride; the old setup used to ride like a dump truck when it was unloaded, even with a swingout and topper

- Vibration from ~55-60mph is COMPLETELY gone! NO MORE VIBES ANYWHERE!!

- rear end feels more planted and controlled; should be even better once I get the crossbrace finished and installed

- regardless of the shackle flip or not, the rear end should droop like a MOFO. Probably even more noticeable now that the shackle is back to being inverted with 12" shocks. The shackle/shackle hanger would be the limiting factor (still need to test flexing/drooping the rear for clearance)

- Reduce leaf pack wear and tear compared to shackle flip; unknown what damage was already done, however, if any.

- No axle wrap vibes/shutters from a dig.

CONS:

- ride height; it's only been 1 week (BAMF) versus 3 years (shackle flip) ..I'm such a bitch..

- I was replacing a hanger bolt Saturday that I snapped during the install and I could no longer sit straight up under the bed of the truck; again, bitch.

- Dragging ass more; more of a chance of scratching bumper on more obstacles

PLANS:

- I will be hanging onto the shackle flip brackets and hardware for now. I will clean them up, paint them and put them in a storage bin. Maybe I will use them again, maybe I won't.

- Leave the BAMF kit installed, cycle the travel in the driveway and take her offroad to test performance.

- Look at a custom Deaver leaf pack (or local shop if applicable); 600lbs of constant load at 4" of lift. Not sure this would really be worth it for an extra inch of lift in the rear, but when the Dakars reach end of life and need replacing, that will likely be the route I take to gain some rake in the rear (provided I keep the BAMF kit installed).

https://deaverspring.com/product/tacoma-2wd-4wd-6-lug-2005-2018-expedition-series-spring/

- Torn between stage II and stage III; Probably stage III

NOTES:

LOL. I know. I use that phrase as an endearing term. I swear

Why inverted? Well you asked for it.

Start by drawing a line between the front spring hanger and the pivot of the shackle/rear spring. Now draw the same line with the shackle flipped. As the suspension compresses, an inverted shackle will allow for more bump travel than a shackle flip. It's line will be higher. Typical responses are to either 1) extend your bump stops or 2) allow the spring pack to go wicked negative arch.

With that said, yes you gain some ride height (again think about the lines) and you will gain some droop. However, every single spring pack on the market is designed for the factory inverted shackle. Flip that around, and now your spring pack will be more loaded at right height when compared to the factory inverted shackle. Look at anyone who's done the flip. Their spring pack is almost flat at ride height. And since every pack is a progressive spring rate, expect your ride to be bumpier and payload decreased.
Some people allow the springs to go more negative. But be aware, this will decrease the lifespan of the pack and make it more susceptible to breaking a leaf when flexed.

I'm of the opinion that if your goal is anything even remotely mid to high speed, shackle flips are the wrong decision. If you are only interested in crawling, the flip will allow more droop at the consequence of less bump. Most crawlers aren't overly concerned with bump travel, but then again there are very few crawling rigs on TW. The vast majority of us are building a rig that we can keep streetable/DD and still be a weekend warrior. IMO a shackle flip doesn't accomplish that (very well).

Also keep in mind, if you bought OE shocks, your shocks are no longer long enough to allow for the added droop travel of a shackle flip. Which means redesigning your shock mounts or new shocks. I call this never ending cycle FOTFUSE: Fix One Thing Fuck Up Something Else.

Something else to keep in mind. A lot of the flips I've seen on TW, folks are using longer XJ shackles (my build included) to get even more droop. Something people seem to forget is a shackle is a lever. The longer the shackle, the larger the lever. Pair that with the completely shit 2 ply sheet metal C-channel frame and you are asking for bent and/or cracked frames due to the frame dovetail. Hense the boxed and plated frame.

And the last but not least tidbit on the shackle flip conversation. As I mentioned, every single pack on the market is designed for the inverted shackle.

One more comparison. Because a shackle flip gives you "sooooo much more droop"

I got so sick of arguing that same thing...nobody wants to spend the money for correct custom leaf packs so they try all this stupid shit to make dakar's or AP's etc work the same way. They'll spend hundreds on shackle flips and stupid shit ...to not spend a few hundred extra where it counts on the leafs.

With my old setup (Dakar and shackle flip with xj shackles) I did some driveshaft measurements and I would have needed a 4* shim on my leaf pack to get the driveline angles in check. For the time being while I had the flip, I had a 1" carrier bearing drop to get 2 of the 3 u-joints in check, but that big of a drop was fucking with the u-joint off the x-fer case flange. So I always had driveshaft vibes.
With the new spring pack and back to stock geometry hangers and shackles and no diff drop, I was only 1.3* off. Generally speaking you want the u-joints less than 1* off, otherwise you will end up with driveline vibrations at some speeds/loads.
I'm super anal retentive and hate driveline vibrations so I went to work with the angle finder. With three stacked washers under the CB I was able to get the angles to 0.1* difference.

-shackle flip just gives you lift and makes you feel like you have more "droop" Depends on shock setup. If you are using OE mounts, you will not get any more droop out of it.
-shackle flip it self doesn't put more load on the springs (ultimately the springs are holding the weight of the truck regardless) but if the wheel is stuffed with the shackles flipped and no bump stops the springs will be subjected to negative arc and shit can get damaged (namely the springs and frame) Mostly. The leaf packs are progressive spring rate. When you do a flip, you are loading the springs more at ride height than compared to the factory inverted shackle. So not necessarily "more load" but perceived ride quality will be bumpier because the spring rate is higher when the pack is flatter.
-shackle flip does not give more "travel" or whatever yall decided on earlier lol Depends if/how much you allow the pack to go negative. Doing just a shackle flip will give you more droop. And if you don't extend your bump stops, you can have more travel by allowing your pack to go more negative. This subject has been beat to death. I'm at the point where I don't care what anyone does. So much utter bullshit spewed off in many threads. My truck, my preferences, my build. I know the ride quality and travel differences with both setups and there's a reason I went the route I went.
-shackle flip can mess up your driveshaft angles. That's for damn sure

Back to inverted hangers.
New Deaver springs installed.
Shackles I built ended up not working out quite right. They were dragging the bushing pretty bad. Will need a slight redesign. But for the time being, stock ones back in place. Truck rides sooooooooo much better than before. Fucking night and day. Just say no to shackle flips kids.

New ride height:

Full droop:

CLOSING THOUGHTS:

*DISCLAIMER #2 - It took me all day to write this up at work and get another dose of @jberry813 to feel better about my decision.

The plan now is to focus on some custom Deaver leaf packs for the rear and ditch the HD Dakars. Those will likely come before I even replace my 12" Billies with my brother's old 12" Kongs. I keep bugging him that he needs to get to a welder and it seems that the better option would be to just buy new and be done with it..at this point.

I am so indecisive about the rear suspension. This is now like the 5th or 6th iteration of the rear setup.

I need to focus on the front end rebuild..hopefully excited new coming on that front..SOON.

Click to expand...

jberry813 said: ↑

Na. Kuddos to you for filtering through the BS. It’s difficult to wade through various posts to get “real” information. It’s human nature to justify a purchase (either consciously or subconsciously) regardless if it sucks or not.

I’ve made mistakes and spent money on stuff before and have no problem admitting faults or gains.

Your post is impressive. You took your own subjective feelings and threw it all out there.
Click to expand...

jberry813 · Jun 17, 2019

Straight to my build and the feels

geekhouse23 · Jun 18, 2019

jberry813 said: ↑

Straight to my build and the feels

Click to expand...

Seriously though, mistakes were made, faults admitted. There are others out there that need our help...

Armyhater458 · Jun 18, 2019

I was considering this route when I redo my rear set up. Pros and cons to the shackle flip? It is my understanding that the shackle flip allow more droop in the rear suspension, I can't see the downside to that unless your shocks or brake lines don't allow for the amount of flex.

geekhouse23 · Jun 18, 2019

Armyhater458 said: ↑

I was considering this route when I redo my rear set up. Pros and cons to the shackle flip? It is my understanding that the shackle flip allow more droop in the rear suspension, I can't see the downside to that unless your shocks or brake lines don't allow for the amount of flex.
Click to expand...

Read this first.

geekhouse23[OP] said: ↑

SHACKLE FLIP VS. BAMF HANGERS REVIEW/THOUGHTS/PLANS

...

In short, I am not sure that I like the look/stance and I think the shackle flip ruined my life!! (over-dramatic)

*DISCLAIMER - I was/am FULLY aware that I would have lost height in the rear going from a shackle flip to an inverted shackle, however, I didn't think it would be THIS drastic or noticeable. (The shackle flip ruined my life.)

I have had the shackle flip for about 3 years and the BAMF hangers for a little over a week. I keep going back and forth in my mind about going back. Part of it is because I have had the shackle flip for so long that I am just accustom to how the truck looks in the rear. The other part of me that tells me to leave it is because, I am not sure that my shackle flip was ever set up correctly. I believe the shackle should have been mounted in the front most hole. I probably would have lost .5" - 1" with the shackle being more at a 45* angle versus 70* seen below. Here is the stock length ATO
shackle at rest, bed unloaded with a topper and high clearance steel bumper with swingout:

Here is, also, the best side by side comparison of the shackle flip (left) versus the BAMF kit (right) taken weeks apart (both with an empty bed, topper and high clearance steel bumper with swingout:

I have no actual numbers from before (kicking myself for it) but I would estimate roughly 1.5" - 2" of height lost in the rear. I should still be at 3" of lift in the rear, and the truck appears to look level; even slightly raked just not as pronounced as before. I like rake. I really do. Pics below:

I don't believe that my leafs are worn that would prompt a "necessity" replacement:

Here are some pros and cons that I can think of/confirm after a little over a week of the new setup:

PROS:
- smoother ride; the old setup used to ride like a dump truck when it was unloaded, even with a swingout and topper

- Vibration from ~55-60mph is COMPLETELY gone! NO MORE VIBES ANYWHERE!!

- rear end feels more planted and controlled; should be even better once I get the crossbrace finished and installed

- regardless of the shackle flip or not, the rear end should droop like a MOFO. Probably even more noticeable now that the shackle is back to being inverted with 12" shocks. The shackle/shackle hanger would be the limiting factor (still need to test flexing/drooping the rear for clearance)

- Reduce leaf pack wear and tear compared to shackle flip; unknown what damage was already done, however, if any.

- No axle wrap vibes/shutters from a dig.

CONS:

- ride height; it's only been 1 week (BAMF) versus 3 years (shackle flip) ..I'm such a bitch..

- I was replacing a hanger bolt Saturday that I snapped during the install and I could no longer sit straight up under the bed of the truck; again, bitch.

- Dragging ass more; more of a chance of scratching bumper on more obstacles

PLANS:

- I will be hanging onto the shackle flip brackets and hardware for now. I will clean them up, paint them and put them in a storage bin. Maybe I will use them again, maybe I won't.

- Leave the BAMF kit installed, cycle the travel in the driveway and take her offroad to test performance.

- Look at a custom Deaver leaf pack (or local shop if applicable); 600lbs of constant load at 4" of lift. Not sure this would really be worth it for an extra inch of lift in the rear, but when the Dakars reach end of life and need replacing, that will likely be the route I take to gain some rake in the rear (provided I keep the BAMF kit installed).

https://deaverspring.com/product/tacoma-2wd-4wd-6-lug-2005-2018-expedition-series-spring/

- Torn between stage II and stage III; Probably stage III

NOTES:

LOL. I know. I use that phrase as an endearing term. I swear

Why inverted? Well you asked for it.

Start by drawing a line between the front spring hanger and the pivot of the shackle/rear spring. Now draw the same line with the shackle flipped. As the suspension compresses, an inverted shackle will allow for more bump travel than a shackle flip. It's line will be higher. Typical responses are to either 1) extend your bump stops or 2) allow the spring pack to go wicked negative arch.

With that said, yes you gain some ride height (again think about the lines) and you will gain some droop. However, every single spring pack on the market is designed for the factory inverted shackle. Flip that around, and now your spring pack will be more loaded at right height when compared to the factory inverted shackle. Look at anyone who's done the flip. Their spring pack is almost flat at ride height. And since every pack is a progressive spring rate, expect your ride to be bumpier and payload decreased.
Some people allow the springs to go more negative. But be aware, this will decrease the lifespan of the pack and make it more susceptible to breaking a leaf when flexed.

I'm of the opinion that if your goal is anything even remotely mid to high speed, shackle flips are the wrong decision. If you are only interested in crawling, the flip will allow more droop at the consequence of less bump. Most crawlers aren't overly concerned with bump travel, but then again there are very few crawling rigs on TW. The vast majority of us are building a rig that we can keep streetable/DD and still be a weekend warrior. IMO a shackle flip doesn't accomplish that (very well).

Also keep in mind, if you bought OE shocks, your shocks are no longer long enough to allow for the added droop travel of a shackle flip. Which means redesigning your shock mounts or new shocks. I call this never ending cycle FOTFUSE: Fix One Thing Fuck Up Something Else.

Something else to keep in mind. A lot of the flips I've seen on TW, folks are using longer XJ shackles (my build included) to get even more droop. Something people seem to forget is a shackle is a lever. The longer the shackle, the larger the lever. Pair that with the completely shit 2 ply sheet metal C-channel frame and you are asking for bent and/or cracked frames due to the frame dovetail. Hense the boxed and plated frame.

And the last but not least tidbit on the shackle flip conversation. As I mentioned, every single pack on the market is designed for the inverted shackle.

One more comparison. Because a shackle flip gives you "sooooo much more droop"

I got so sick of arguing that same thing...nobody wants to spend the money for correct custom leaf packs so they try all this stupid shit to make dakar's or AP's etc work the same way. They'll spend hundreds on shackle flips and stupid shit ...to not spend a few hundred extra where it counts on the leafs.

With my old setup (Dakar and shackle flip with xj shackles) I did some driveshaft measurements and I would have needed a 4* shim on my leaf pack to get the driveline angles in check. For the time being while I had the flip, I had a 1" carrier bearing drop to get 2 of the 3 u-joints in check, but that big of a drop was fucking with the u-joint off the x-fer case flange. So I always had driveshaft vibes.
With the new spring pack and back to stock geometry hangers and shackles and no diff drop, I was only 1.3* off. Generally speaking you want the u-joints less than 1* off, otherwise you will end up with driveline vibrations at some speeds/loads.
I'm super anal retentive and hate driveline vibrations so I went to work with the angle finder. With three stacked washers under the CB I was able to get the angles to 0.1* difference.

-shackle flip just gives you lift and makes you feel like you have more "droop" Depends on shock setup. If you are using OE mounts, you will not get any more droop out of it.
-shackle flip it self doesn't put more load on the springs (ultimately the springs are holding the weight of the truck regardless) but if the wheel is stuffed with the shackles flipped and no bump stops the springs will be subjected to negative arc and shit can get damaged (namely the springs and frame) Mostly. The leaf packs are progressive spring rate. When you do a flip, you are loading the springs more at ride height than compared to the factory inverted shackle. So not necessarily "more load" but perceived ride quality will be bumpier because the spring rate is higher when the pack is flatter.
-shackle flip does not give more "travel" or whatever yall decided on earlier lol Depends if/how much you allow the pack to go negative. Doing just a shackle flip will give you more droop. And if you don't extend your bump stops, you can have more travel by allowing your pack to go more negative. This subject has been beat to death. I'm at the point where I don't care what anyone does. So much utter bullshit spewed off in many threads. My truck, my preferences, my build. I know the ride quality and travel differences with both setups and there's a reason I went the route I went.
-shackle flip can mess up your driveshaft angles. That's for damn sure

Back to inverted hangers.
New Deaver springs installed.
Shackles I built ended up not working out quite right. They were dragging the bushing pretty bad. Will need a slight redesign. But for the time being, stock ones back in place. Truck rides sooooooooo much better than before. Fucking night and day. Just say no to shackle flips kids.

New ride height:

Full droop:

CLOSING THOUGHTS:

*DISCLAIMER #2 - It took me all day to write this up at work and get another dose of @jberry813 to feel better about my decision.

The plan now is to focus on some custom Deaver leaf packs for the rear and ditch the HD Dakars. Those will likely come before I even replace my 12" Billies with my brother's old 12" Kongs. I keep bugging him that he needs to get to a welder and it seems that the better option would be to just buy new and be done with it..at this point.

I am so indecisive about the rear suspension. This is now like the 5th or 6th iteration of the rear setup.

I need to focus on the front end rebuild..hopefully excited new coming on that front..SOON.

Click to expand...

Armyhater458 · Jun 18, 2019

geekhouse23[OP] said: ↑

Read this first.
Click to expand...

Good write-up and read. Thanks for the link man.

singletrack_ftw · Jun 18, 2019

@GT7 relevant

GT7 · Jun 18, 2019

singletrack_ftw said: ↑

@GT7 relevant
Click to expand...

Haha it worked fine but just not what I was wanting. Hammer hangers will solve that in a hurry

singletrack_ftw · Jun 18, 2019

I love shackle flips and if they’re dialed in correctly they are a beautiful thing but they have their limitations. It’s so cool to see products like Archive Hammer Hangers and BAMF HD hangers. The future is now and it is so good.

singletrack_ftw · Jun 18, 2019

FWIW @mventure._ has the archive shackle flip and his truck sits static and wheels just beautifully. It’s executed so well on his truck, seeing that in person is awesome.

SearArtist · Jun 18, 2019

OP your original shackle angle was way too much. You should have been somewhere between 25-45* while loaded.

I got a shackle flip coming soon, but it comes in the form of 63’s.

Following this thread for...science. Looking forward to what others have to say.

ARCHIVE · Jun 22, 2019

There is one indisputable truth, the stock Tacoma hangers are trash, in every way.
As the designer and builder of the Archive Shackle Flip and the Archive Hammer hangers, and experiencing both on my personal 2005 DCSB, I highly recommend the Hammer hangers over the shackle flip to most Tacoma owners. The Hh return a carlike ride improvement, and increase droop travel without hurting bump travel, and vastly increase durability.
https://www.tacomaworld.com/threads/tacoma-hammer-hangers-soa-sua-archive-garage.519625/

However, the Archive shackle flip is a pretty sweet combo with off the shelf Deaver Spring Under springs:

ARCHIVE said: ↑

So there's been an update to the Deaver mid travel SUA springs, part numbers U539/540 (HD) and U644/645 (Light).

These springs have been lengthened by 1" at the rear, so newer versions measure 29.5" from center pin to rear eye. (old version are 28.5"/28.5")

This spring update makes the Archive shackle flip more practical than ever for these SUA springs. Why so?

When going for max travel, it should no longer be necessary to move brackets forward an extra inch and drill 4 new holes. Now the "foremost position" using 3 of 4 original rivet holes should be just right. The foremost position does require 1 extra upper rear hole be drilled (due to bumper mount clearance).

For the updated SUA springs, these are my recommendations:

Double Cab
U539/540 with 4.75" shackles and brackets in foremost position

Access Cab or Reg Cab
U644/645 with 4.75" shackles and brackets in foremost position

Please see pic or attached pdf for explanation of bracket positions, and stay tuned for further updates as more information comes in from customers

Click to expand...

Maggot61 said: ↑

I've had the Archive shackle flip w/ 4" shackles for more than a year now on stock springs and have been happy with ride but needed to upgrade the rear to keep up with my front set up. Decided to go with the full Archive set up and Finally got the Archive SUA and Shock relocation with Fox 14" shocks installed and the Shackle flip w/ 4.75 shackles. Haven't had a chance to hit any dirt yet but stoked with the street ride so far. Thanks for all your help Eric @ARCHIVE and for answering all my questions. Your product is top notch man!

Don't mind the white splatter on the under carriage, it's from a paint can some douche left on a dirt road near my house.

Click to expand...

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Shackle Flip Support Group

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geekhouse23 [OP] The "Liftman" - @DrFunker

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geekhouse23 [OP] The "Liftman" - @DrFunker

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geekhouse23 [OP] The "Liftman" - @DrFunker

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geekhouse23 [OP] The "Liftman" - @DrFunker

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#8
singletrack_ftw “I chopped the wrong leaf!”

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GT7 One piece at a time

#10
singletrack_ftw “I chopped the wrong leaf!”

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singletrack_ftw “I chopped the wrong leaf!”

#12
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#13
ARCHIVE Well-Known Member Vendor

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Shackle Flip Support Group

#1 geekhouse23 [OP] The "Liftman" - @DrFunker

#2 geekhouse23 [OP] The "Liftman" - @DrFunker

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#4 geekhouse23 [OP] The "Liftman" - @DrFunker

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#6 geekhouse23 [OP] The "Liftman" - @DrFunker

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#8 singletrack_ftw “I chopped the wrong leaf!”

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#10 singletrack_ftw “I chopped the wrong leaf!”

#11 singletrack_ftw “I chopped the wrong leaf!”

#12 SearArtist GX poor

#13 ARCHIVE Well-Known Member Vendor

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#1
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#2
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geekhouse23 [OP] The "Liftman" - @DrFunker

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#6
geekhouse23 [OP] The "Liftman" - @DrFunker

#7
Armyhater458 Well-Known Member

#8
singletrack_ftw “I chopped the wrong leaf!”

#9
GT7 One piece at a time

#10
singletrack_ftw “I chopped the wrong leaf!”

#11
singletrack_ftw “I chopped the wrong leaf!”

#12
SearArtist GX poor

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