2012+ Clutch Problems

So I emailed Toyota and LuK and this is what they tell me:


Thank you for the reply Robert,

Evidently some of the clutch assemblies used in 2005 to 2010 Tacoma 2.7L trucks had a defective (Luk) brand friction disc. The disc would lose friction material under normal driving conditions, showing slipping at as little as 10,000 miles. I have attached an image of such disc. SURELY Toyota has heard of this before considering the number of people researching the issue and seeking resolution.

-Image attached,

Thanks,

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We understand your perspective on the issue, and again apologize. Though, since we do not have any TSBs or SSCs at this time, and since any internal data or research would be otherwise proprietary, we would not have additional information to share.

If we may be offer further clarification, please contact us via email or by calling 800-331-4331. We are available from 5 AM to 6 PM, Pacific Time, Monday through Friday, and from 7 AM to 4 PM Saturday.

We have documented your comments at our National Headquarters under file #Xxxxxxxxxxx

Robert Browning
Toyota Customer Experience
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HAH!

and from (Luk):
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Hello Brian,

Thanks for the reply. From what I have researched, certain friction plates of these clutch assemblies are losing friction material under normal use... resulting in slipping. I have attached a photo of an example of this. This appears to have been a quality control issue. Surely there is something on the books about this. I may try and call you once I get a chance. Thanks,
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It may be possible on the OE side that there is an issue. But like I said from the Aftermarket side we are not having any issues with this part. LUK OE is a different division the LUK Aftermarket.

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[/FONT]I then asked for a contact I could talk to for Luk's OE manufacturing and/or any data on quality control issues in the past for OE Toyota clutches and have received no reply. I also asked a tech at another Yota dealer other than the one I got the truck from about the clutch and they "have never heard of it." Denial denial denial denial......Obviously it is a REAL problem otherwise there would not be so many people speaking out about it on here and other forums. Toyota is becoming (Americanized) using shit parts like this! [FONT=&quot]
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My 2010 had this issue, I had the dealer replace the luk clutch and pressure plates with the Asian ones when they dropped the trans for the t/o bearing. I still hated how clunky the trans was so I traded it in for a 13 auto never been happier am I am glad I did.

 

My 2012 V6 TRD with 10k on it is chattering/stuttering while going into 1st gear when cold. In general, shifting between any gear is not incredibly smooth (cold or warm). Seems to have slowly gotten worse over the past few thousand miles. Nothing major, just not what you would expect from a new truck. The 1st gear chattering is what bothers me the most.

The gearing in general seems rather shitty. I've definitely burned my clutch on a few occasions while reversing up a slope or hill. The gearing is way too "tall" for reverse (see previous thread I started: http://www.tacomaworld.com/forum/2nd-gen-tacomas/241320-clutch-burns-easily-reverse.html). I think I've also burned it a little bit in 1st gear before while on a steep hill. Maybe this is driver error, but I got 365k miles on my last clutch (never had to replace it), and have been driving stick shifts my entire life, so I hesitate with blaming myself.

Taking it in for the 10k dealer maintenance today and will bring up the issue(s).

Any suggestions as far as what to communicate, ask the dealer service for?

Thanks for any tips.

 

Even though you have pushed in the clutch, and the RPMs are at idle speed, the output shaft of the transmission is still turning at vehicle speed. Therefore your noise could be coming anywhere from the transmission back to the rear differential. I agree that this sound is abnormal by your description.

Yes, the TOB can make noise either pressed in, released, and in some conditions both. The reason so many make noise when pressed in is that it is at that point that the TOB is under load. When your clutch is released, then the TOB is under minimal load.

Unfair to group all dealers into a blanket statement. There are bad techs out there, as well as bad managers. I am sure in your career line you have some bad apples. Wouldn't be fair if I said all of YOU were liars now, would it?

Sounds like the LUK rep you talked to is aware of an OE issue, but wants to pass the buck to them. Even though OE is a different division than the aftermarket, they are still part of the same parent company. It may be possible that certain dealerships are not aware of a problem because they don't sell many manual transmission Tacoma trucks, or haven't had any fail and be brought to them. It happens.



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Personal rant here.

While I feel for what everyone has to go through, as I have been on that side of the coin as well, one can't expect production lines to be 100% perfect, or that every issue that comes up be instantly resolved and fixed.

When manufacturing parts for cars, planes, boats, trains...whatever, there are always conditions that can arise that may not show up for a long time. I have seen recalls for Cadillac that didn't get a fix resolved for it in 5 years. When a common problem is brought up, there are LOTS of steps. First you have to verify that it IS a common problem, and not just a simple rare bad part. Once that is determined you have to take these parts to the engineer or manufacturer to have the failure sorted out for cause, and then a fix designed.

Toyota gets their clutches from LUK and Aisin. This means that when a common problem comes up, it is up to Aisin or LUK to come up with the fix, and Toyota is at their mercy. You can't expect Toyota to just give everyone a new clutch every time it fails at 10k miles until they can get the problem resolved. That is just bad business sense. They have to wait for the manufacturer to get an updated design and then THAT design has to be quality tested.

The 2013 truck that you buy this year was in the design and build phase in 2008! They get the designs down and the initial parts manufactured so that they can test them for quality, and safety. Even THEN, when you manufacture a part, you have minor defects that can initially pass QC and then fail later on. Environmental testing can only do so much, and then when the mass production begins, the REAL tests come out. Real world tests that no system can perfectly duplicate in a controlled environment.

Even then, you can have a small flaw come up in the mass production that ends up getting put into production. That flaw may not show up in more than 100 vehicles, or it could show up eventually in 10,000 vehicles. Manufacturing is not, nor will it ever achieve perfection.

I challenge anyone here to manufacture 1 million spark plugs, or 1 million seat belts, or 1 million of ANY car part, and have every single one of them be perfect and flawless in operation. It doesn't happen. and don't blame Toyota, saying that their quality is going to crap. They used to have some of the lowest manufacturing numbers in the US, and now they are in the top 2 I believe. Any time you increase your production numbers, problems will come up.

You go to ANY dealership in the US and you will find technicians that are working. Not just Toyota or Ford, or Dodge, Chevy, Nissan....etc, but every one of them. I see plenty of Mercedes and BMW and Jaguars in my shop, and even THEY complain about how their brand sucks. You can't expect a car that is built from 500,000 individual parts and having 10-20 computers in it to be flawless. It won't ever happen.

******** End of rant********

We now return to our regularly schedules thread, already in progress..

 

That all makes good sense... any suggestions for what I should ask the dealership service department to look at specifically when I take it in today? I am patient with the issue, just want to make sure we get to the heart of the issue I'm having now sooner rather than later. Thanks for any advice!

 

You save me an awful lot of typing around here Bill..

 

In general be up front. Tell the service writer that you have heard of the TSB for similar situations and ask him to investigate. Also consider talking with the service manager. He may be able to help you. Be polite, but let them know that you are very concerned for the safety of the truck. If your "wife" (married or not, just say this) were to be driving it out of town, and the clutch failed, she could be stuck on the side of the road in a dangerous situation, and you really don't want that to happen.

 

I have a 2012 Tacoma 4cylinder and the clutch is slipping when in 4th and 5th gear and I just took it to the dealership and they told me they would have to see if they could cover it. I think that it is bs because I have only owned manual transmissions and have never had to replace a clutch. I had a vw jetta with over 350,000 miles and still running on the original clutch.

 

Thanks.
Of course they weren't able to duplicate the problem when they tested it--but the service manager did say they documented the problem both on my file and sent a notification to Toyota, basically saying that as soon (if) it gets worse, they will fix it, but didn't want to start throwing parts at it now. The service manager seemed well aware though that there had been many problems with the 6 spd's, both past and present.

 

Especially when capitalists outsource to a third-world manufacturing facility, and slowly replace once quality parts....with cut-rate sh!t....and charge us the same amount of money for the Toyota quality. We are being robbed! And I'll be damned if I do not fight it and hold anyone and everyone accountable that I can. Now that American capitalists got their hand down the pants of original Toyota engineering, They are slowly corrupting the tried and true machine that earned its quality rating in the past. This is just one more lie to add to the list of products that America "imports" and obscures as "quality." People gotta be held accountable.

 

Really get into the dealer, especially the service manager. I had the same problem and it isn't covered under warranty or a TSB (YET) . If you bought it new, put a lot of pressure on the dealer to fix it even if they have to front the costs. This will be the only way to get a new clutch without cost. You are not alone man, but eventually there will be a TSB out for 2012+ 4 cylinder MT clutches.

 

I posted on the first page with TSB's. Are you folks sure there are no TSB's in ur area?
There are tsb's to replace clutch, pressure plate, master and slave cylinder and clutch pedal. If doing the clutch and pressure plate, make sure they throw in a TOB and machine flywheel.
Also I agree these trucks have a clunky temperamental transmission. I much rathered the feel of my 1990 civic with worn synchro on 3rd gear. The way I look at it is I keep making complaints before warranty ends and then replace the trans just before it runs up.

 

Why is that funny?

 

Because a simple "adjustment" of the pedal assembly fixes it. Tighten the nut and apply a little loctite and you're good to go. No more "creak".

 

Glad that worked for you. Well until I can master that technique, I will most likely be replacing the clutch master cylinder and pedal with updated parts for Tacoma owners that come in with these symptoms.

I don't know about anyone else, but if my truck is still under warranty and allows me to have updated parts replaced for free; well I think I'm going to take advantage of it. I always shake my head when customers come in after warranty wanting free work just because we are supposed to take their word that the issue was there before warranty ended.

 

using the word 'defective' appears to sit well with dealers, bring the service mgr for a ride and demonstrate the slippage, any decent service manager will know this is not normal, if they say it is best to move along to diff dealer

 

Really? You think it ALL has to do with "capitalist Americans"? There is a lot more to do with it than that.

If you double check, he did take it in and mentioned the bulliten, and they told him that his VIN did not fall within the VIN list of those with the failed parts from the TSB. If the VIN is outside of that range, the dealership's hands are tied.

 

I have a 2012 4X4 4cyl 5 speed. Clutch chatters when starting out in first. It seems to only do it when cold. It's not consistent though. I took it into the dealer at 5,000 miles and of course they couldn't get it to do it, but they did document the problem. It now has 6500 miles on it and it's getting worse, ie, more frequent and more shaking. A couple of times I thought I was going to shake the rear end out from under it. It's due for the second oil change next month, so I'm going to drop it off and leave it and they can have it until it's fixed. Until then I'll drive my 88 toyota 4X4.

 

Mine started slipping in 4th last night, just short of 9000 miles. Gonna try to get it in tomorrow.

 

Have an appointment at the dealership on Thursday. The person I talked to on the phone seemed to be aware of clutch issues. Driving to work this morning the slippage was very evident in 4th and noticable in 3rd and 5th. Guess we'll see what happens Thursday.