Ethanol

I am not trying to be smart, I am just not sure what you are asking except to tell you that you have to order it and pay for it.
http://www.tacomaworld.com/forum/new-members/278259-first-post.html

 

Look here
http://pure-gas.org/index.jsp?stateprov=CA

 

Learned my lesson on the ethanol crap today....let my Kawasaki ATV sit for two years in the garage and despite routine starts and stabil fuel additive carbs are beyond a simple carb flush/drain....fuel has congealed. After a couple hundred dollars in labor and parts, all is finally back to normal. Now I willtake the extra time to travel to the nearest gas station in town to purchase the fuel without ethanol for all my small engine vehicles, mowers, etc. Will also run a few tanks of 93 through the taco to see if it benefits the mpg's.

 

i have a 6spd, offroad package. i know of a few others that do too

 

I'll jump on the bandwagon with my ethanol experiences. I've only had one vehicle that I had problems with E10, a 1980's something Ford F350, 460cid. The economizer valve in the 4v carb turned to jelly. I've used it in boats, bikes, cars, truck, mowers and leaf blowers with no problems. One caveat, it does not store well. As stated the alcohol likes water and that leads to the formation of some kind of gunk that settles out and can "crystallize" which obviously is not good for fuel systems.

Wether or not it is an overall plus for the environment when produced from corn varies with who's point of view you look at. Where it is produced from sugar cane such as Brazil it is definitely energy positive and has been used there successfully for decades.

Also as stated previously if our engines were designed to run exclusively on alcohol or say E85 they would be more efficient because they could run higher compression and or boost.

My 07 Tacoma 4.0 runs well on it and returns a very steady 19-20 mpg in mixed driving and it's about $ 0.25 per gallon cheaper, provides a lot of jobs here in Iowa. So it's like the never solved great oil, spark plug, vehicle brand, Japanese or European bikes, Yadda Yadda Yadda question. Opinions yours or mine some are so ingrained that no amount of scientific evidence will change or minds.

I'll keep using my corn sqeezings, iridium spark plugs, Fram oil filters and Rotella T6 for my vehicles, power equipment and toys.

 

I thought that autos were like shortbeds and all u could get with the OR PKG (double cabs anyway) since autos are "better suited" for off roading, rocks and hills and such.

 

It's ok to use ethanol gas but drain the tank and run a little 110 through it before storing, it will save the pilot jet from getting clogged.

 

ethanol gas is complete shit!!!! although i dont agree with it, does run a little cleaner and newer vehicles are designed to be compatible with it...plain and simple, the next time you fill up look for an expiration date at the pump for when that nozzle is due for an inspection...due to ethanol eating the seals. it does WAY worse than good. Especially considering there are more vehicles on the road that are rated for the pre ethanol days.

 

Last fall I had a 2013 Highlander for a loaner vehicle. It had a do not use E15-E85 on the gas fill cap. Happy to see a manufacturer stand up and say "we can't warranty an engine burning this crap". My Taco performs better and gets better mileage burning E0. The mileage alone offsets the higher price!
I sure that ethanol has some good uses, I just don't think burning it in a gasoline engine is one of them. If it is such great stuff why don't they build power plants that burn it?

 

I see. Well I think it boils down to a preference issue. Usually those who have the standards tell you they feel they are better, but I do believe the auto is easier to use, but I prefer the challenge.

Right after I bought it, within a week, I took it to Colorado and did some off road stuff. I chose the rocks, didn't want to get it all muddy at the time. It did fine for me although I did slightly scratch the new paint, too soft, on the passenger side as it got tight on the mountain trial. The trail was considered a 4 and was about 7 miles long. It was as rough as one could navigate with stock tires, no sliders, without a winch, and other off roaders. It took me 3 hours to navigate. Sorry no pictures. When I got to Colorado I found out I forgot my camera, bummer.

Back to the ethanol. I did have to use it in Fort Collins, but since then my truck has only been on pure gas.

 

it's all the greenies fault.

 

Without really diving in the science behind fuel burn and AFR calculation, it's important to realize that ethanol and petrol don't require the same amount of fuelxygen to burn completely - so the AFR you may be used to seeing is something liek 14.7:1 (air to fuel) for a "optimal" complete burn. E85 requires like a 9.85:1 air to fuel.

if you really care about the engineering/science I'm happy to have stupidly long conversations about this but just realize that the two burns aren't the same and require a different mixture to burn completely. Here is a decent link on the two and how to compare them.

http://www.e85mustangs.com/tuning.html

BTU of a fuel only tells one part of a much bigger strategy. If all we cared about was the explosive cycle at TDC on any given car and combination then yes, the energy of the fuel would be the primary concern - However what you're not considering is that ethanol can allow you to advance timing significantly without inducing detonation, it can also allow you to prevent detonation even with significant levels of positive pressure (boost) - So yes you're not wrong about the energey for the SAME volume of fuels, but believe me when I tell you with 1 gallon of e85 I can make 2x the power I COULD make on one gallon of 93. If manufacturers used ethanol properly they could make wickedly powerful motors producing tons of torque with the same internals they have today, assuming components are strong enough to support the additional stresses anyway.

I realize that most people on this board don't give a damn about the performance of a fuel or it's use outside of daily driving, and that's okay. I am not defending all of the politics behind ethanol just suggesting that ethanol itself is not all bad, some blame has to be with the manufacturers of vehicles that don't support it also.

Ethanol has been around for a long time, and WILL BE around for a long time, and *CAN* at some point be a self sustaining fuel mechanism, I'm no tree hugger, I eat lots of beef and carry lots of guns - but I am also a realist about the fact that fossil fuels aren't going to last forever and anything we can do to move towards sustainable energy should be viewed largely as a benefit, unfortunately in America this means we also have to put up with all the lobbyists and BS that something like that brings.

 

absolutely 100% false... Ethanol is no more corrosive or acidic than normal petrol fuel is. In fact ethanol is actually biodegradeable in water, did you know that? Ethanol *CAN* attract water - the water against the aluminum or sitting in your injector cap is what causes problems it is NOT the ethanol.

Where is it you guys hear this nonsense? It's not like ethanol is some corrosive battery acid of a fluid - FFS it's made out of corn and is actually HUMAN consumable in it's pure form, if you want a wicked hangover drink some e98, it's essentially everclear, just not as refined.

The real problem is on old cars that used steel tanks - the WATER in the ethanol or the water that can be attracted to the ethanol will cause the steel to rust.

 

uh oh. So here we go. Is it ok for your truck or not?

 

I'm trying really hard not to take any of this personally but some of the things you guys are saying are just flat out wrong about ethanol...

There is no denying the fact that ethanol BURNS COOLER than petrol does, that is simple science - I would bet a reasonable amount of money that if we took the variables out of the equation that can effect temperature like oil coolers and radiators - you would see a cooler engine with ethanol. Keep in mind your vehicle, and every other road going vehicle is programmed via mechanical and eletrical controls to operate at a specific temperature, so your thermostat opens at like 180 degrees and your oil cooler/trans cooler opens at 220 or something like that, this doesn't change regardless of which fuel your burning...

However, I Will tell you that the actual effect on heat generation on my supra was significant enough that I REMOVED every oil cooler on the car and relied strictly on my radiator to evacuate heat from the system. I was unable to safely do this on just race gas or regular petrol because the actual burn cycle itself generated a signicantly larger amount of heat.

I Would also contend with your statement of "motor isn't meant to burn XYZ" - Ethanol does not leave behind any reside when burned properly, in fact it's far cleaner for a motor than regular hydrocarbon based fuels are which can and do leave carbon deposits.

Take a look at any motor with 100k miles on it if you could compare an ethanol motor to a fuel motor side by side you would see the cylinder heads and valves on the ethanol motor are spotless, no deposits, and look new as long as they are undamaged by some mechanical failure - a fuel motor will have both oil and fuel deposits on the valves and cylinder tops...

Again please don't misunderstand what I'm saying, ethanol is not the cure all fuel, but the fuel itself is not only cleaner, but it's safer for internal combustion motors, is DAMN NEAR impossible to detonate without spark and generates less heat on a combustion cycle.

I don't doubt that some of you have experienced issues with ethanol, but the reason you are experiencing them is not the fault of the ethanol, the ethanol certainly could be the catalyst, the example I gave before was a dirty fuel tank, fuel is dirty, gunk it and crap in it - with lots of use fuel tanks start to build up scaling and deposits from plain regular fuel - ethanol fuels will actually start to break down that gunk and CLEAN the tank, the problem at that point is that your fuel filtration system is not adequate enough to deal with all the crap the ethanol is cleaning in the rest of the system - so while you might think ethanol is what clogged your (insert item here) it likely was not.

 

If you are a chemist and scientist as you claim than you would be disingenuous if you aren't honest about the TYPE of exhaust - the TYPE of exhaust by product from fuel and ethanol are NOT the same, one is harmful one is not, any guesses which is NOT harmful?

I don't disagree with you on the food to fuel statement, I have no witty reply or comment on that one - the politics of ethanol are questionable at best and I acknowledge that

Ethanol production CAN make sense and be viable, look at other countries around the world that have done it - it CAN make sense in America but currently it does not... however we cannot advance a technology without actually ADVANCING a technology. I also acknowledge that economically ethanol is not self sustaining today, but it can be and if and when it truly takes off NOT just from government force there will be investors and companies who will get on board with producing ethanol and making it make sense withOUT the subsidies, even though I love ethanol I don't believe the government should be subsidizing the industry because it makes it a false argument... If ethanol works and is good stuff, people will buy it - if it's not people won't, simple as that - let it fail or succeed on it's own.

 

I have a brand new 2014 tacoma picked it up yesterday, *IF* I could tune the ECU myself, or there were a legitimate tune in the truck for ethanol i would have ZERO problems putting e100 in my truck, and there is not a single product in the truck that would have a problem with it... all the fuel lines would be fine, all the fuel injectors would be fine, the fuel pump would be fine... so yes it's fine in my truck except toyota wouldn't be too happy me tuning the truck on my own.

 

Well I'm inquiring about the fuel I put in my truck that is a mixture of ethanol and gasoline. That is my question.

 

As an agrologist (look it up if you don't know what that is) I can safely say farms are not making huge profits from the sale of ethanol. Yes, crop prices have come up on farm. However, unlike every other industry in North America farms had seen prices DECREASE, with inflation considered, for the last 30 years before the late 2000's. As of last year our crop prices were ALMOST (not quite there) with where they should be given inflation since the 1960's if we match up agriculture with the growth of other industries.

BTW this year corn prices fell by 30-40%, and gas prices have gone up... So, no the two are not connected. Same with food prices, believe it or not only 20-30 cents of a loaf of bread is wheat cost when prices are at there highest. So most of the increased price of food has nothing to do with the price of commodities, it's just an excuse used by everyone else higher in the chain to take another 5% margin for themselves.

FYI a bushel (56 lbs of Corn or 60 lbs of wheat) of corn is only worth about $5 right now, and wheat is lower in places....

 

I don't know what fuel you used, or what blend you used... Assuming it's a pump grade e10 or e15, yes it's safe... If you are putting an e85 in the truck and expecting it to run well, you'll be upset and the truck may not even start after the few first minutes as there simply would not be enough fuel being injected to burn properly.

contrary to what popular opinion may have you believe if your vehicle was built since the early 2000s every rubber line and component is the fuel system is rated for ethanol.

The theory with ethanol content was SUPPOSED to be that you'd burn less hydrocarbons and more renewable energy product, but what has really happened is far from that - manufacturers haven't lived up to their end of making that happen which is why CAFE standards have started to get very strict - The tacoma is actually a pretty good example of that - Toyota has taken the "if it's not broke don't fix it" line with the tacoma and it works amazingly well for the tacoma, however if you apply that to ethanol and flex fuel technologies (or any technology for that matter) you will just make your vehicles TOLERATE it rather than truly be optimized for it.

Let's just assume there were no BS politics in place about ethanol, if toyota were to optimize the tacoma for ethanol, run every component so it was rated for e100, teflon fuel lines, stainless steel injector internals, etc - they could then also optimize the electronic FI system to support ethanol and produce better power than they make today, and do it safely. Because they can make better power safely they can tune the car for mileage more agressively and get damn near if not better mileage than today.

I will say that more advanced motors and head technology can utilize true ethanol better, the ability to use something like VVTi to dynamically adjust the flow of a the air in the head could help with optimizing for ethanol.