SOLVED! Post 2853 Leaking Injectors, Dealer Techs Rock! Extended Cranking after Engine Swap 3.4L 5vz

I know, you're right for a lot of reasons Keakar. Just tough when there's a pretty strong consensus that certain things should have been looked at FIRST, and honestly, for all I know, maybe they were and it's just miscommunication. But I'm guessing those things weren't specifically looked at to see if they were the culprit w/the excessive cranking hot soak starts, because it seems likely that he would have told me if they were. I'm pretty sure he's aware by now that I'm a details freak that wants to be kept in the loop, and he HAS kept us in the loop on stuff, like updating us about testing the regulator/checking the pump, then telling us about how back pressure testing was good after replacing regulator, so it seems like he would have mentioned it by now if he'd already ruled out the engine coolant sensor, or if he'd cleaned the throttle body and all that other good stuff you guys and my old buddy have mentioned. So that's where it seems maybe worthwhile to ask if those things were looked at yet or not. Somewhere there's a line between telling someone how to do there job (not cool) and asking questions about how something you're spending a ton of $ on is coming along (justifiable).

Another positive (NOT ) - just called my old car buddy in Illinois, and essentially (even though he said it very nicely and I had to pry his opinion out of him), he thinks the AFR gauge is kinda pointless. He basically explained what Dirty Pool said, about how if 1 cylinder runs lean, more gas will spray to compensate, so the gauge will probably still tell us all is hunky dory. Sweet. Glad we dropped an extra $400 on the gauge/labor for that. Certainly can't blame that on the mechanic - we basically asked him to put it in. Shoulda bought Scan Gauge in the 1st place, as advised - argh. Although husband put a positive spin on it - even if the AFR gauge serves no other purpose, at least it's bright little blinking display will be a pricey way to remind us of this incident and never ignore CEL again!

Gonna work on a home improvement project for a bit and think about this more later tonight - maybe I'll get a fresh perspective on how to proceed. Thanks for the input guys. Bright side is, no matter what, somehow this will all eventually be resolved and I'll be back to blasting Waylon and exploring all the nooks and crannies of Oregon. MUST. FOCUS. ON. THAT. NOW. HAPPY. PLACE. Hope you all have a good rest of your weekend!

 

I'm sorry, but this last post just made laugh out loud! I can tell you got way too much info rattling around in your head and I'm sure the bunch of us are the cause.

It has been said "knowlege can be a dangerous thing" and the opposite "ignorance is bliss"

I will say that I am extreamly impressed with how well you are grasping the functioning of a modern, fuel injected vehicle and I will admit I'm a bet jealous. It basicly took me 25 years to gain the SUPERFICIAL knowlege that I have on how these things work, but it seems to have only taken you about 25 days. You have learned the foundation, now to work on the next levels, which I don't see too much of an issue.

If only more people were more conserned about what goes on after you turn the key, machanics would be a rare breed. maybe good, maybe bad, I dunno.

I would take it easy on your machanic, tho. He and his team did a wonderful job getting the truck back to you in the promised amount of time. I really thought it would take a couple weeks longer with the holidays and all.

That shop wants to make sure you have a perfectly repaired vehicle and will do everything they can to make sure that you are happy. I'm sure they are aware that you have a mouth on you and know how to use it.

I said before, I'm betting it will be a simple, stupid issue that is causing the troubles. After all, there is a lot going on under that hood and the truck is 15 or so years old. Wires get brittle, connecters get corroded or any other simple thing could occur.

It hasn't been said, but the operation of a modern fuel injected engine is a pretty standard thing. What you have learned here can quite often be applied to other brands.

Once you get that SCII, you will have a whole shitload of homework to do. Every one of those sensors that the SCII can read will have to be studied up. The SCII only tells you the number sensor is reading. It is your job to reasearch to find out what a normal reading is.

Not to be too personal, but do you sleep much? I have been stuck at my primary work for most of the holidays and been having a hard time keeping up and responding to your posts.

 

Hope you used a healthy stack of coupons. If not, you cna take your receipt back for 30 days and have them retroactively apply coupons.

There is usually a 25% off coupon floating around online, but January seems to be a month where they have not issued any. The 20 and 25% coupons are not valid on jacks or toolboxes, but work on pretty much anything else.

Also, the new HF flexhead ratchets are excellent quality - may pick up a couple for the husband if you all are building up your tool collection.

 

Great, a shitload of homework?!??!?! When is this class going to end?!?!??! Really, though, it looks like a pretty handy tool. Husband is excited about it, so I'll leave the homework part to him!

Wow, thanks for the compliment about learning all this truck stuff! I think you're giving more credit than what's deserved, but I'll take all the positive feedback I can get right now! Besides, whatever I know, I learned virtually all of it from my Taco World buddies, so the credit goes to you guys....and on the flip side of that coin, I'll know who to blame if I blurt out something dumb! ha ha JK

Really though, once we start talking sensors I'm pretty lost. Starting to understand a bit, but still quite a lot of technical stuff to try to grasp.

Absolutely, positively still think the world of the mechanic. It's so true, even w/the holidays, that guy and his team got a new engine in our truck in a pretty short amount of time, and clearly did a whole lot correctly in that process, as it drives beautifully, better than I can ever remember. So still super stoked about that, and super grateful to them. And I definitely have confidence in their ability to address whatever's going on now, but I also like to hear what you guys and friends/neighbors think, to help us understand what to say yes or no to when it comes to replacing things, and help guide us about the right types of questions to ask, so at the very least, we have a better understanding of what the hell all this money is going to and why it's worth it! Really, you guys are kinda doing him a favor - if you all weren't teaching me this stuff, I'd be calling there with questions a whole heck of a lot more often than I already do - thinking he'd be sending us to a different mechanic at that point!!!

I do actually sleep a fair amount, but when awake lately, I'm 99% focused on the Taco stuff, since I'm not working right now - left the veterinary field (doing reception at a veterinary oncology place most recently) after 10 years in July - just got burnt out. Will probably start a job search in a different field after Taco's back. Plan when I quit was to stay home long term and be the ultimate housewife/doggie momma, cuz that's what I love doing - I'm obsessive about DIY home improvement stuff and taking good care of our 4 legged kid - but then $6K in truck repairs happened. But yeah, I realize most people probably don't spend nearly the kind of time on these forums that I've been spending - it's kinda addicting! Always something new to learn, or a joke to share, or commiserate together over some crappy thing.....way more interesting than Facebook, cuz you actually learn useful stuff about your truck, as opposed to learning what some idiot's baby's poop looked like! Plus until Taco's back, I'm housebound, unless I feel like walking places in the cold, rainy weather - hmm, let's see.....nope.

What, you actually put work ahead of helping me understand my Taco??? That's not right!

 

to be honest girl, I think you and your husband have learned enough at this point to take your old engine or any engine apart and rebuild it "with guidance of course) but you have the patience and have demonstrated the ability to absorb things that make most peoples eyes glaze over with a blank lost stare lol.

I think you and you husband would have a blast tearing a motor down and dissecting it and putting it back together, probably might not be the best professional level rebuild job ever done but I think "now" you could handle it as well as the average mechanic.

never stop learning an never stop asking questions and remember there are certain things most people send out to have done, even mechanic shops so do what you know and let the specialists do the specialty work.

the next time you have motor issues I think you guys are in a position you can try your hand at rebuilding it yourselves.

 

Aww, thanks Keakar! Again, I think you're giving us more credit than we deserve - frankly, I would NOT want to buy an engine that WE'D rebuilt!! But perhaps we'll give it a go someday, and I'll count on you to be our first customer!

OK, after a full day of researching/discussing between husband and I, we now have this theory that the fuel pump is the culprit. Here's the logic:

1) If temp sensor was wacky, why is it starting great when super hot (5 min after being shut off) but awful when hot (30 min after being shut off)?
2) Based on a review of some diagrams in the Haynes manual (yikes!), my understanding is this, as far as location of things, in relation to each other -
- Exhaust system is closest to cylinders #3 and #5, which are the two injectors that failed - based on an article I read, coupled w/conversation w/old mechanic buddy from Illinois, seems likely that reason for prob's at #3 in 2007 and again now could be location - gets hottest there
- Cylinders #3 & #5 are farthest from fuel pressure regulator and fuel pump - so, if one or both of those parts are on their way to their funeral, but perhaps not quite there 100% yet, seems logical that the injectors furthest away from them could suffer negative consequences the earliest. Regulator was replaced already, but not pump yet.......

What do you all think? Granted, husband and I have both had a drink (or two, or three ) at this point, so perhaps our theory is half baked. But had to share, just in case we're actually onto something, then I'll get to be like, woo hoo, I totally called it, yee haw!!

By the way, upon inspecting the Haynes fuel chapter more closely this evening, I realized the diagram I posted very late last night, after a drink (or two, or three) was indeed labeled "Location of EFI main relay, the circuit opening relay and other fuel system components on 1993 and 1994 V6 T100 models" - oops. Apparently we overlooked that in our highly scientific research process last night. Apologies for sharing incorrect info!

Time to watch Golden Globes. Have a good night Taco World buddies!

 

as I said before, get drunk, watch a movie, go to bed and wait for the mechanic to tell you what he found out.

first rule is you cant diagnose anything unless its there to troubleshoot and test your ideas on so until you get the truck back still broken (lets hope not) you don't need to fix anything and you are just driving yourself crazy with a puzzle you cat possible solve without having the truck there.

from the sound of what you described, I believe its losing fuel pressure when the engine is shut off so its not getting gas to start, or the injectors are flooding it and its getting too much gas to start, both act the same.

testing for this is easy but you need the truck so get drunk and go watch reruns of big bang theory or something

 

OK, it wasn't just the whiskey talking - I'm still standing by last night's theory (my last post), like Knuckle said above. My money's on this one....I was totally convinced it was a sensor thing, but it just doesn't fit cuz why does it start fabulous when it's been off for only a few minutes, but crappy when off 30 min? Unless I am completely overlooking some point you sensor theory guys made - am I? And injector leaking doesn't totally fit either, cuz
A) they were replaced, or cleaned and tested before being reused; and
B) if that was it, then why would it start great cold, after it had an injector leaking for like 12 hours? but then barely start when sitting for less time? doesn't make sense......

Keakar, seriously? You just totally contradicted yourself in your last post! You advised me to let it go, cuz the truck isn't even here, so stop driving myself nuts w/theories - then in your very next paragraph, you proposed your own theories - and I know Taco isn't in Louisiana right now, so what gives man??? Just admit it, it's hard to stop formulating theories about a puzzle that you've become addicted to solving......even if it becomes pointless cuz it's up to someone else to solve, ya still can't help trying to in your mind!!! C'mon, take the bait - tell me why I'm wrong about my injector thoughts, then we can go round and round about it all day - more fun than FB man! At least we'd be learning/using our brains by puzzling over it!

Oh yeah, and regarding the "cold start injector" we don't have - we're thinking when the mechanic said "firing up good cold, it has the added cold start injector" maybe he (in an strangely worded way) was referring to the extra fuel that's delivered to the engine when it's started completely cold? It does do that, right?

 

Jen..... BREATH GIRL! Sit back a bit and breath. I swear you are going to pop a blood vessel in your head with all this stress you are giving yourself. You can question a million things all day about what COULD be the problem. Let's wait to see what your mechanic says he finds, then go from there. If in your mind you think it is something he did, or something he missed, you could perhaps talk to him about him absorbing all of the cost, (if he screwed up) or maybe the labor cost, and you pay for parts, if it is something he missed, but wasn't his FAULT that it failed. You have no idea how many times I have had to deal with customers who bring in their car for a bad door lock switch, then after I replace the door lock switch the window stops working, and they blame ME for it. Sometimes things just happen, and this is especially evident with an older vehicle. Sit back, get your mind off this, and wait to see what he says.


As for the other subjects, I have an ultragauge installed on my Tacoma and LOVE it. Paid less than $100 and it gives me every bit of data I could ask for. AND you can keep it hooked up all the time and the moment something happens, it will tell you.

And on the service manuals, Chilton and Haynes each have their up and down sides. Personally I have found that Haynes manuals have better, easier to understand wiring diagrams, where Chilton has better details in their repair procedures. AllData is far and above the best I have found, and I have used several different ones over my 20+ years in the industry.

 

I think you missed the last sentence

and yes its very hard to stop trying to solve a puzzle, that's why I said go get drunk, people drink to forget problems not dwell on them so get out the booze and the party dress and RELAX !!!

 

I think our OP had a bit too much Salty Saki Moonshine this past,,.

ASE certified Jen. Don't forget any of this stuff, cause you going to have to help us when our junk breaks .

 

Interesting, easy to read article about EVAP systems and clogged fuel tank vent lines......

http://www.aa1car.com/library/evap_system.htm

"If a blockage occurs in the liquid-vapor separator or in the vent line between it and the EVAP canister, the fuel tank will not be able to breathe properly. Symptoms include fuel starvation"

Sorry guys, I can't relax. Actually, it's not so much that I'm stressed (at least not at the moment), it's just nearly impossible for me to think about anything except what the hell is causing all of this. Especially when it seems very possible that whatever is causing the weird hot soak starting problem could wind up being related to what caused the piston hole in the first place - seems both issues have to do w/fuel, air, and temperature factors. Tried my best to focus on something else, and was back to googling within very short time....hey, at least I'm learning, right?

 

From what I can tell, this site sells the conversion kit for people w/3.0L or 22RE that want to convert to the 3.4L. This was an excerpt from their instructions on how to do the conversion/install. Maybe this doesn't mean anything relevant to our situation since ours was replacing one 3.4L w/another, but still found it interesting, maybe relevant (especially the part about the pump)? One thing's for sure, glancing over this loooooong list of stuff to do w/engine swap, I'm sure glad we didn't try ourselves!

http://www.offroadsolutions.com/tech-info/3-4l-5vz-fe-conversion-kit/

"Carburetor applications: Remove the original fuel supply lines and replace with high pressure lines. Build or install a high pressure fuel line from the fuel tank to the engine bay area. Install a high pressure fuel filter somewhere in this line. Fuel lines and a filter from a 3.0L application work well. Install a high pressure fuel pump at the beginning of this line. An inline pump can be used, however, ORS recommends the use of an in-tank pump to avoid “vapor-lock” conditions. A fuel tank from a fuel injected application of a similar year may bolt straight in. The fuel pump used must be intended for fuel injection systems running at least 60 psi of constant pressure. Follow instructions 62-66."

 

Ahh, very similar to our problem - turned out to be this:

"Basically it was a bad fuel pump jumper wire (from the

Motorcraft Wiring Kit

tank connector to the actual pump), the wire was burned black, had gotten hot enough the

Bargman 7 Way Plastic Connector - Car End

plastic connector fell apart when we took it out, wire looked horrible (and yes this is INSIDE the tank, not a good place for a hot wire)...we spliced in a new wire, soldered connections, used a normal blade style electrical connector on the positive side of the pump (which held on about 10 times as hard as the factory one would), buttoned it all back up, and voila, works perfect...the pump might have been ok, but we replaced that too while in there, but the obvious problem was the wiring, we have the wire to take a pic of (as soon as we find it in the toolbox)...

Now fuel pressure is 42psi ALL the time (like it should be)..."

Fun thread to read too - some dude got all pissed at the OP for posting in wrong forum section, then OP basically schooled him on the why behind it.......and as a Taco owner (OP had a 4Runner), I couldn't agree more w/the OP's logic!

 

http://forum.ih8mud.com/threads/fuel-rail-pressure-when-starting-real-time-help-please.102573/

Same dude, same problem, different forum - here's his explanation on that one -

"We have a picture of the burned fuel pump wire that we will post, it makes me a bit uneasy thinking others might have a hot fuel pump wire inside of their fuel tank, not a good place for a hot wire, or something sparking...the annoying part is testing the fuel pump voltage at the tank connector would do no good, since this problem was inside the tank on the short jumper wire from the tank's connector to the actual fuel pump, so you HAD to get in there to see/test that (if you had isolated the pump's pressure you could have verified something was wrong, but still wouldn't have known if it was the pump or the interior wiring until you got in there).

I don't remember anything about the ECT, but the wire that was bad was inside the tank. It was the ~12" long piece that went from the tank connector down to the pump. The plastic connector where it clipped into the pump was partially melted away and the wire had clearly gotten hot and was brittle, missing insulation. We spliced (soldered) a new wire for that part and a new blade-style slide-on connector (if doing this pay attention to which wire goes where on the pump since if you ditch the

Bargman 7 Way Plastic Connector - Car End

plastic connector entirely you don't have anything that tells you what wire goes where) onto the pump.

Interesting though as when I wrote this I was doing this work on a friend's '96 4runner, I also have a '96 4runner but mine was fine. Now years later, he has long since sold his and I have had some fuel issues with mine. The last time I had the tank out to replace the fuel pump I did this same mod on my wires going to the fuel pump because I wasn't happy with how weak the electrical connection was to the pump, even though mine wasn't melted but the actual metal contact parts still looked oxidized and did not have much spring left in them. Was it causing the pump to not get enough power? Not sure, but it sucks a$$ to drop that tank repeatedly by yourself (I've done it a few times), so I was doing as much as I could while in there."

 

see you solved the problem, or at least pinpointed the few issues you need to check

good thing nobody told you to get drunk and stop trying to figure it out

 

Yep, all figured out. Will now open "Jen's Taco Garage" in our gravel driveway, rather than start a job hunt.......

 

now if you can solve the problem why all 4 bangers idle roughly no matter what you do to them we will elect you president of taco nation

 

http://www.tacomaworld.com/forum/1st-gen-tacomas/313833-heat-soak-problem.html

Hey, I recognize the smart guy giving advice in this thread!! Sounds a lot like our situation......fuel pump is looking awful likely......

 

Will get to work on that ASAP Keakar! Right after I get drunk and watch some reruns! JK, had to say it.......