SOLVED! Post 2853 Leaking Injectors, Dealer Techs Rock! Extended Cranking after Engine Swap 3.4L 5vz

I would like to see the traceability of the scan gage from the manufacturer to the retailer to the mechanic to you...either the gage was bad, or was installed incorrectly. If the first shop knowingly installed a faulty gauge, that was directly responsible for additional cost and time, they should make it right. If the first shop installed the gauge INCORRECTLY, then they are responsible for ALL additional labor and materials henceforth.

I believe the original manufacturer is ONLY responsible for supplying a working item, if the mechanic purchased the part to install on your vehicle, they are responsible for making sure it was installed correctly and working correctly prior to delivery.

I am extremely happy to hear you finally have a working truck...

Time for the Buffalo Trace.

We are now waiting for a foot of new snow, extremely cold, high winds and perhaps some boredom if the power goes out.

Howard

 

and let me add as an alternate option that might make both of you happy (engine guy and jen) have someone you trust properly remove the gage and bring it back to engine guy and put it in his hands so he can just get the new replacement gage, in the box unopened, and just hand it to you and you walk away. might be best to just ask him first in case he needs to see it still installed on the truck so he can try turning it on and off to confirm for himself it doesn't work right. this way he doesn't need to devote any time or effort into removing it and this way he doesn't put hands on your truck again, I think this is to your liking, and you get a new gage that you paid for and can sell as a brand new gage in unopened box to someone who wants it and get some of your money back.

no shop in the world will repay you for time and labor spent at some other shop working on something they installed. this is because they are only obligated to redo the work not pay the mechanic of your choice to go behind them and mess with it.

lets be fair, as far as engine guy knows, the next guy who worked on it could have done something to mess it up, not saying he did and we all likely know for sure we can assume he didn't, but engine guy cant be sure of that and if we are to be objectively honest here we have to agree to be reasonable in expectations of what is realistic to expect.

 

Not really, the first shop was given the chance, twice to rectify their error and they were unable to...At that point, they become responsible for error rectification by someone else. And THEY can go back to the manufacturer for compensation caused by the bad gauge.

But in reality, collecting off the first shop is going to be messy, unless we can point to obvious error in installation (unlikely since it simply plugs into the OBD port), or have the manufacturer do an analysis of the unit and see how it could have the effect it did, and they probably won't share their findings.

Howard

 

yep, I just don't see it going anywhere towards getting any labor or other expenses refunded short of going into civil court and getting a ruling in your favor to force them to pay. even still its going to be hard to prove they did anything intentional and all they have to say is she chose not to bring the truck back to them so they could fix the problem so that was her choice. and its not like they told her they refused to work on it anymore.

laws are different everywhere as to what your limited to as far as remedies in these situations. its definitely something that's most likely not worth the time out of your life to pursue it.

but as she said before, she doesn't want to hear negativity or anything to bring her down so its best to let her figure out her options herself because us talking about it has too many "what ifs" in it.

I was a small business owner for many years and I stand behind my work and will fix it for free no matter how many times something comes up if it is in any way related to my work even if it has nothing to do with my workmanship or efforts because sometimes unforseen things just happen, but if you call someone else to fix it that's on you and your labor warranty with me is null and void right then and there because someone else has worked on it behind me and im not going to be responsible for anything they might have done or caused to happen. I think all business feel the same way.

 

I gave up wrenching for money many years ago, now I just do it for fun...

 

Have fun! Thanks for all your help! Looks like I'll probably be shipping a Taco brain your way soon, as it appears perhaps mine isn't as scrambled as we feared

 

Yep. What he said ^^^^^

And his second paragraph is an excellent point, and its exactly why we will be having the gauge removed by a professional who is familiar with these gauges, so we have documentation of whether the gauge itself was faulty; whether the gauge was for some reason not appropriate for our vehicle; or whether the installation of the gauge was incorrect. And documentation that whatever was not right about the gauge was the cause of the issue, an issue that caused us to spend lots and lots of dollars that would not have been spent otherwise. Not to mention the time and stress and loss of our vehicle factors.

And no one in their right mind would trust the person who INCORRECTLY installed the gauge or installed a FAULTY gauge or installed a gauge that was INAPPROPRIATE for their vehicle to un-install that same gauge. No way. Especially if the person responsible for that gauge's malfunction also did a variety of shoddy work, such as injectors that failed 3 weeks after being serviced, dented cam sensor, reinstalling cracked/worn hoses, leaving intake a dirty filthy mess, stripped bolt where fuel pressure is checked, leak in fuel return line, etc etc etc. Nope. No one in their right mind would go back there and trust that same person to correctly remedy the gauge issue. And while it will require some work on our part to explain all of this to whoever it needs to be said to in order for the outcome to be a fair one for us, it will happen, because now we are not just talking about a few hundred dollars. We are talking about a whole lot more than that.

We will begin by approaching them directly and will do everything under the sun to be fair and reasonable and seek to find some sort of compromise that is acceptable to us and to them. We have zero desire to deal with the additional ongoing stress that would be created by a long term battle over this. But, based on my conversation with him earlier this week, I unfortunately have serious doubts about whether he's going to be fair and reasonable and willing to compromise on his end. And if that's the case, I ain't laying down and taking it.

By the way hetkind, it's the AFR gauge, not the Scan Gauge that is the problem. The Scan Gauge rocks! AFR gauge is wired into the truck's electrical system, and likely wired into the ECM also. The Scan Gauge plugs into the OBD II port. No issues with it whatsoever, it's awesome. Highly recommend.

 

Nope. I meant Mech2. Typo. I think you know what I think of Mech1.

Ok, make it skip it across the cesspool then, it's your gauge.

A faulty gauge would have to be warranteed at factory,,so some more wait time on that refund. Don't know if Mech1 would just straight across swap or cash you out. He would have to wait on that verdict before anything transpired,,and probably wouldn't cash you out until he finds out.

 

Ah, gotcha. Yeah, you can imagine my confusion when I read "take back to mech 1" !!!!!!! That was my reaction to that.

I'm pretty darn sure we just want the thing gone. Don't know why it has created problems, but don't really wanna take any chances of more future problems with it, even if it's found to be faulty install that could be corrected. At first, the gauge seemed like a good idea to forewarn us of possible future piston holes, but now it seems its just got too much potential to CREATE problems rather than prevent them. Plus, I figure we made it to 195K before piston hole - if we can go another 195K before another piston hole, I'm OK with that.

 

^^^^ she don't talk to me no more, I done pissed her off too many times

got all my mechanical education from being poor, if I wanted to drive something I had to fix it first, usually a tranny rebuild sometimes an engine rebuild sometimes I got really lucky and it ran and actually would go somewhere when you put in gear but it was being used as a dog kennel or smelled like something died in it and needed a whole new interior, but that's the only ones I could afford to buy lol.

I used to run an a/c repair business for 35 years before my back gave out and I went bankrupt with all the medical bills and such. I didn't have employees so it was just me and without me there was no business.

 

Naaa, she is out running the hell out of her new truck...and it's Valentines day. Her and the hubby treated themselves to night out. They deserve it.

Whew! This has been the thread from hell! I enjoyed it, but it still was the thread from hell!

 

we will need another 100 posts of cookie recipes or something because post #2000 is reserved for jen and we cant stop until she gets it

I bet in all the confusion she didn't even realize she got to post #1500

 

Let's back up a second here on the gauge so I can understand. Was it disconnecting the AFR gauge (an Innovate electronic AFR gauge) or disconnecting the Scangauge II that solved the issue? Both have been mentioned as being at fault but I think Jen said it's the AFR being removed that fixed the issue. Honestly, either one causing the issue is pretty interesting. What exactly did you remove Jen, or did you just disconnect the gauge?

The Scangauge can't change any engine parameters. It can only read data from the OBD 2 and wipe codes from the memory. It can't adjust any parameters. The power to the OBD 2 comes from it's own live and ground wire so I can't see how it could cause any issues at all.

Innovate is actually a very good gauge. A lot of tuners run them. A lot of people on here with S/C run them too. Gadget from URD even sells them and he doesn't sell low grade product in my experence. Innovate are known for a quality product. It's really hard to believe it would cause an issue unless it was installed by an idiot. The AFR gauge should be hooked up to it's own wide band sensor that's been positioned properly in the exhaust stream to get correct readings. It should have no interactions with the stock ECU. The ability to transmit readings to the ECU is a feature used for custom tuned ECU's not for interacting with the stock computer. The only way I could see something going really sideways is if the engine guys somehow wired the gauge to read off the narrow band stock oxygen sensors. That would throw a different reading to the ECU that could cause all sorts of issues and would of probably thrown a code.

Anyways those are just some of my thoughts. Before you lynch the gauge companies both of those products have good reputations so I'd think it has more to do with the install than the product either way.

 

Also, I might be interested in your used AFR gauge if you get a new one on exchange and it comes with the Wideband Sensor and Gauge .

 

That sig pic makes me laugh every time.

 

Not me. I drive one of those. Hits too close to home. Still funny. Tho.

 

$209 Innovate Motorsports (3795) DB BLUE Wideband Air/Fuel Gauge Kit includes LC-2 & Bosch LSU 4.9

http://www.amazon.com/Innovate-Motorsports-3795-Complete-Wideband/dp/B001QFH2RW

This is the AFR gauge they installed.

I would gladly sell you the AFR gauge, although I doubt you'd want it unless we are able to somehow verify with the mechanic who we have remove it that the gauge itself is OK. We paid the engine mechanic $200 for it, which is $35 more than Amazon wants. I guess the extra cost paid for us to receive 6 weeks of the fun filled troubleshooting and sleepless nights it created.

We're not driving the truck right now guys. Husband could remove the gauge himself, but we want to have a shop do it, ideally a place that is super familiar with these things and can tell us WHY it was causing the problem.

Anyway, from reading the manual on the gauge, it sounds like we could wind up damaging its 02 sensor if we drove with it still installed but the components disconnected. And we're nervous that we could be somehow messing up our truck's ECM/sensors/electrical if we reconnect it and drive the truck, since know what it's been causing, and have reason to be concerned that it may be wired wrong. We want it gone. ASAP. So basically Taco is staying parked til we choose the best place to remove that thing, then I''ll drive it straight there, hopefully Mon or Tues.

Here's 4 pics for your viewing pleasure -

First pic is of what we've been disconnecting on the gauge components to realize it was the culprit. That's what was disconnected Friday night when the truck started almost normally 4 times in a row. Then that thing (the computer for the AFR gauge basically) was plugged back in after those 4 starts, and after the standard 30 min wait, we had the dreaded excessive cranking to start.

Second pic is of the additional 02 sensor that was installed with the gauge. I know we already have two 02 sensors (bank 1 sensor 1 just before cat, and bank 1 sensor 2 just after cat). The 3rd 02 for the AFR gauge sits just in front of bank 1 sensor 1 O2, so it's towards the front of the truck more, and further away from the cat. Husband thought it looked like they did a good weld job on the AFR gauge's 02 sensor. You can also see in this pic how the AFR gauge 02 sensor and the bank 1 sensor 1 O2 sensor are located in relation to one another, and how bank 1 sensor 1 02 is missing a bolt.

Third pic is just for fun - its a 1976 Toyota Corona with less than 4K on it, in my fave color blue. Seeing such a neat old Toyota was def. the best part of going to the dealer.

Fourth pic is not a great shot - but its the best pic we can get that shows how the AFR's 02 sensor and the bank 1 sensor 1 02 sensor are located in relation to one another, and it also shows how bank 1 sensor 1 02 sensor is missing a bolt......

See the bottom right corner of the pic, where you can see something welded onto the exhaust pipe? That's the AFR gauge's O2 sensor. Then the bank 1 sensor 1 O2 is the primary thing in this pic, and you can see where there's a bolt missing very clearly. Husband tried poking in there, he thinks the bolt pushed through and is sort of blocking/stopping the opening. Not sure if it was like this before the engine mechanics worked on it or not, but obviously they did a fair amount of work in that immediate area - checked our cat, installed the AFR's 02 sensor, and I'd imagine checked for any exhaust leaks, since they assured us they would fully inspect to diagnose and repair anything contributing to cause of piston hole. Anyway, if they saw that missing bolt, its disappointing they wouldn't replace it or at least tell us about it. Hoping maybe it wasn't mentioned or replaced because they somehow verified that nothing needed to be done about it. Regardless, whoever we have removed the gauge and its sensor, we'll make sure they address that missing bolt however they think appropriate.

Keakar, you bet I noticed when we got to #1500! I noticed that MOD stole it!! He's in serious trouble

And don't worry, something tells me we'll easily make 2000 without even trying. You guys know me - I'm not going to be satisfied to just have the gauge removed and the problem gone - I'm gonna need to know the HOW and the WHY behind it creating the problem, and all the details relating to it. Then we should definitely fill in fave baking (and drinking! ) recipes if we're coming up short, deal?

 

They did a great job welding, but I can't believe they left the other sensor bolt broken off. They could have welded another stud right then and there. Shhesh!

 

Yep, kinda what I was thinking......

Does anyone think those look oddly located, in relation to one another? Just so eager to find out the "why" behind this whole thing. I mean, plenty of folks have AFR gauges and they are not causing hot start problems for them, so something has got to be amiss with ours somehow. Hoping we'll be able to find out exactly what it is.

 

Yeah, and it's really REALLY odd that the problem went away by disconnecting the gauge rather than removing it completely. That exact gauge is used by people on this very form to monitor there supercharger. Usually it is installed after the catalytic converters and people manually adjust the AFR in there brain to get a good reading far away from all the other sensors, but I do know some people have it installed into the exhaust manifold. Everything I've read says to install an AFR 18" away from the last source of the exhaust to get a good reading and doesn't really say more than that. I don't know how that setup could cause an issue unless somehow they wired this thing up to draw current from a wire that had something to do with a sensor or engine management system.