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08 double cab - stock deck - More bass/better quality without a sub

Discussion in 'Audio & Video' started by ddave47, Aug 10, 2008.

  1. Aug 10, 2008 at 10:57 PM
    #1
    ddave47

    ddave47 [OP] Member

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    I don't have the space to add an 8" or 10" sub behind the rear seats. I would like to keep the stock deck and the stock volume level is plenty loud for me.

    What are my best options as to increasing the quality of the stereo and getting more bass. I saw somewhere online that a guy put Dayton 7" woofers in the rear doors...

    One option would be to just upgrade the door speakers, but what sizes should I get? 6x9? 6.5? 2-way? 3-way? 5-way?

    If I add a 4 channel amplifier I would use the high level input from the stock deck, but would I be increasing my sound quality or just the loudness?

    I realize that with the stock deck, there is only so far I can go. What would be the best route for me?


    thanks!
    dave
     
  2. Aug 11, 2008 at 5:53 AM
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    Brunes

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    Start with some better quality speakers in the rear doors. If that doesn't do what you want- You can try an amp...It might clean the sound a bit and you can usually adjust the EQ a bit more with an amp....but it'll give you more loudness too and it's not gunna do what you are looking for.

    Have you looked @ flat or low volume box subs for UNDER your seats??
     
  3. Aug 11, 2008 at 6:23 AM
    #3
    sooner07

    sooner07 1/2 man 1/2 amazing

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    You do have an option that will preserve your stock HU and defeat the bass attenuation that the stock HU has. First off, you really ought to invest in a better set of speakers, especially up front. You can get better mid bass and bass responce with a better set of components (or coax if you don't want to deal with an external tweeter). However, the stock door has a spot for the tweet, so I don't see that as a legit complaint.

    The option that I refered to above is the Audiocontrol Epicenter. It has the ability to "unfilter" the bass attenuation that the stock HU uses to protect the crappy stock speakers. It also gives you a built in LOC so that you can use any amplifier (many today do not have high level inputs). There are other manufacturers of similar devices, I think Rockford Fosgate has one and JBL or someone like that also makes one.

    While this will cost you as much as a decent HU, you maintain the stock look and security. (who wants to steal the stock POS HU anyway? :) ) You gain the ability to use most any amp and the speaker upgrade is mandatory if you are serious about getting better sound out of the truck.
     
  4. Aug 11, 2008 at 9:14 AM
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    Mr Marv

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    You have some good suggestions here already however I'll go ahead and add my 2 cents. :)
    Since the title of your thread is "08 double cab - stock deck - More bass/better quality without a sub" I would suggest a 6x9 component set up front such as the Image Dynamics XS-69 www.imagedynamicsusa.com along with 6.5 coaxials in the rear powered by a 4 channel amp. The XS 69 is not your typical "gimmicky" 3/4/5 way 6x9 rather it is a high quality component set with a tweeter that can be mounted separately or in coaxial fashion. They also have external passive crossovers that allow you to adjust settings to compensate for your particular application. You won't get that really "down low" bass a sub will have but the added cone area of a 6x9 will help fill in the low end.
    The problem with going this route as mentioned is that the factory headunit has built in processing to compensate for the factory speakers so you will not get the full benefit of aftermarket speakers without a device to override the factory settings. I am not familiar with the Epicenter Sooner07 mentioned however there are numerous interfaces out there that will allow you to "flatten" the built in processing but the good ones cost as much as a good headunit as he said.
    Now on the other hand....:D if you are looking to get the most out of your music, the best option IMO would be to replace the speakers as well as the headunit and add an amp along with a true subwoofer (as mentioned there are all kinds of options for adding a sub behind the rear seat in your truck). :)
     
  5. Aug 11, 2008 at 11:28 AM
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    atsaubrey

    atsaubrey Dealer/Sales Rep for Sundown Audio.

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    just got my XS69's in and cant wait to get them installed, these sound stupid good! Why do you say you dont have room behind the seats? I have the 07 double cab and am running 2 10" subs.
     
  6. Aug 12, 2008 at 11:28 PM
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    ddave47

    ddave47 [OP] Member

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    I think I am leaning towards replacing the speakers and seeing how it sounds. That audiocontrol epiccenter sounds like an interesting way to go too.
    So is the best route for speakers, 6x9 in the front and 6.5 in the back? Components or not? If I don't ever use an amp with the stock deck, and I get a set of 6x9's rated at 50watts rms, will I ever be taking full advantage of the speaker? Also, how would the low power of the stock deck affect a component kit with the external crossover?

    Also, is there a place where I can find speaker reviews? what brands are good? I am probably looking for a good mid level set not too expensive.

    thx for all the advice here.
    dave
     
  7. Aug 12, 2008 at 11:32 PM
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    mneuls

    mneuls Well-Known Member

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    you can fit 3 10" subs behind your rear seats.
     
  8. Aug 13, 2008 at 9:16 AM
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    Chickenmunga

    Chickenmunga Nuggety

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    Depends on where you can stick your amps - I've got two monsters that won't fit unless they are mounted horizontally behind the seats, and that eats tons of room. I'm still planning things out on what sub I'm getting, so no pics yet.
     
  9. Aug 13, 2008 at 9:32 AM
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    Mr Marv

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    The headunit is not going to allow you the full potential of any new speakers but I personally would get the component 6x9's up front if you don't plan on getting a sub and 6.5's in the rear if you have to have them. In any case I would not "skimp" on the front speakers rather I would spend the lion's share on those as they will be doing the majority of the "work" (or at least should be ;)) The best "review" of a speaker is of course by using your own ears however if you can't listen for yourself you'll have to try a google search or peep around the forum to see what others have liked/disliked. Also, in case I didn't mention it steer clear of those 3/4/5 way gimmicks and concentrate on the 6x9's that have a "real" tweeter whether they are components or not.

    Almost forgot, "A good speaker installed properly will sound better than a great speaker installed improperly" so take the time to install them well no matter what you get! :)
     
  10. Aug 13, 2008 at 9:44 AM
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    Chickenmunga

    Chickenmunga Nuggety

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    Arghgh, nothing against you Marv, this is in response to the general situation:

    I can go to one shop to listen to a certain sub and it will sound like pure crap, and then go to another store where it will sound like the best thing in the world. I can ask on forums, and have to wade through the, "oh man this is the bomb" to the, "I'm a self-proclaimed expert because I've had one success story", to finally finding who knows what. I've tried to compare numbers, but from my understanding, it's still a crap shoot because the numbers are massaged (sorta like the MPG ratings on cars).
    There's stuff where the price is inflated massively, and others where the numbers are spot on.

    I've been disillusioned so many times by the smoke and mirrors of the industry that I don't know up from down.

    I guess it's good that It's helped me stop making recommendations of my own that I'm not 100% sure of, but I have no idea on how to proceed, or how to let others know 'the path to enlightenment'. :p
     
  11. Aug 13, 2008 at 1:01 PM
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    Mr Marv

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    Well I didn't really have time to type this today but I guess I can eat lunch twice tomorrow! :D

    I know where you are coming from since those kinds of situations are exactly what got me hooked on this crazy hobby! I started out many years ago just looking for a CD player and a pair of speakers for my truck. Every shop I went to would say "we carry such and such brands and they are the "BEST". Well I knew they all couldn't be the best so I turned to the internet. I found a forum and figured these guys must be experts because they have nothing to gain as the shops do. I couldn't have been more wrong as I soon found out that a lot of the people suggesting things did in fact have a vested interest in certain companies and many others were "self proclaimed experts" with no actual experience on the matter! :eek:
    After wasting literally thousands and thousands of dollars I went on a "mission" to see if I could figure out what the real deal was. The first thing I realized was there is NO such thing as the "best" for every situation! The next thing I realized was that it's not just about what you use rather how you use it is just as important if not more important which became the MOST important lesson I learned in this hobby.

    First I must say I believe you have to at least buy "good" equipment if you want it to sound "good" (although price is not always the determining factor in how something will sound it's a pretty good bet that a $39.00 retail subwoofer is gonna sound like a $39.00 subwoofer :eek: no matter what you do!). Unfortunately a sound board as you mentioned won't tell the whole story since you have no idea how each one is set-up and in any case a speaker will sound different in a car as well as from car to car. When it comes to the same subwoofer sounding different from shop to shop that is also understandable since you don't know if they were in the same enclosure nor if they were set up the same.

    In any case the car is a VERY harsh environment to try and get good sound in. You already have to try and overcome this environment so I ALWAYS make speakers my first priority when designing a system as it's a pain trying to overcome the environment but it's a REAL pain trying to overcome the environment AND a crappy speaker together! There are many "tricks of the trade" with sound boards that can "fool" people unfortunately and although the sound board cannot give you all the answers it should at least be able to help you eliminate the ones you definitely don't like the sound of if you do the following:

    1. take a CD of your own with familiar music and listen to the SAME songs with each set of speakers
    2. make sure the salesperson uses the SAME headunit and amp for each set of speakers.
    3. ask the salesperson to turn off ALL processing/EQ etc in the headunit and amp except the proper crossover point
    4. make sure there is NOT a subwoofer or other speakers playing so you can hear JUST the speakers you want to hear

    Once you eliminate the ones you definitely don't like go back around and only listen to the ones you didn't eliminate and choose one from those based on the sound difference you prefer (brighter/softer tweeter, smoother or more pronounced midrange, stronger bass output etc) your budget, brand preference, knowledge of reliability etc. There is no "foolproof" method for this but if you spend too much time trying to find the "perfect" speaker (which does NOT exist BTW ;)) you are just going to driver yourself nuts!

    If listening to speakers yourself is not possible you will have to rely on the ears of others and hopefully their tastes are similar to yours. Unfortunately as mentioned you never know who to listen to but if you see consistent similar comments made about a certain speaker you are considering that should at least give you a better idea of how they "may" sound compared to another.

    Also, the "numbers" can be quite confusing as well since most don't truly understand what they actually tell you. On top of that there is NO "standardized" method for arriving at those numbers making it difficult to compare one speaker to another (based on the numbers) even if you do understand them!

    Next thing is INSTALLATION INSTALLATION INSTALLATION!! You cannot just "stick a speaker in the door" and expect it to sound good (this is where my earlier comment comes in stating "A good speaker installed properly will sound better than a great speaker installed improperly"). Installing a speaker "properly" includes finding the "best" location, sound deadening, taming and/or utilizing reflections, using the PROPER baffle (a thin piece of plastic is NOT a proper baffle), sealing the back wave from the front wave, setting the correct acoustic polarity/phase, proper crossover point/slope, level setting and last but not least EQ tuning.

    Same goes for a subwoofer, you cannot just plop it into any old generic enclosure and expect it to sound great! The correct amount of airspace is needed to ensure proper "damping" and then you still need to have the proper crossover point/slope, level setting, phase and EQ in order for the sub to integrate smoothly with the front speakers (that's for a sealed enclosure and ported requires even more work). Also, the position of the subwoofer plays a significant role in how it will sound.

    BTW, some know I sell many different lines of car audio equipment however anybody that knows me or has dealt with me knows I do NOT push things on people just to sell it to them. If I don't sell what I believe will work best for them I would rather send them somewhere else reputable that has what I believe is a better choice for their situation. Also, I have this habit of buying/trying stuff to see if it lives up to the press reports IMO so I generally speak from my personal experience rather than "repeating" stuff I have heard on the internet/elsewhere. In any case it's all about personal preference and as I sometimes say..

    "I cannot hear what you can hear and you cannot hear what I can hear so our results may differ!" :)
     
  12. Aug 13, 2008 at 7:35 PM
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    sooner07

    sooner07 1/2 man 1/2 amazing

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    Nice lecture Prof. Marv. You have said just exactly the point I have been trying to convey in all of my posts in a/v.
     
  13. Aug 13, 2008 at 10:56 PM
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    ddave47

    ddave47 [OP] Member

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    marv, thanks for the great info, I will start with the 6x9s in the front. I probably can not afford the recommended XS 6x9, any other recomendations? Is there a certain brand that would be a good starting point?
     
  14. Aug 13, 2008 at 11:40 PM
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    Mr Marv

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    Thanks Sooner! :)

    You're welcome Dave! As you may have guessed my first choice would have been the ID's however I recently installed a set of these Eclipse 6x9 components in a fiends car and IMO as well as his they sounded very nice. :) As you can see the tweeter mounts separately and it has a "real" passive crossover with several adjustments for different applications/listening tastes (a big plus when you mount the tweeter away from the mid).

    http://cgi.ebay.com/ECLIPSE-SC6900-...NameZWD4VQQcmdZViewItemQQ_trksidZp1638Q2em124

    If you are looking for a great "value" 6x9 speaker don't let the eBay price fool you on these Pioneer TS-D902P 6x9's (they retail for $180.00 and I don't know how they can sell them for only 70 bucks plus shipping :eek:) as they really impressed me and would be hard to beat IMO in that price range. I am installing the 5 1/4" version along with the 6x9 in another friends old Cadillac soon and I'm sure it will be a pretty nice "basic" system for a very reasonable cost. :)

    http://cgi.ebay.com/NEW-PIONEER-TS-...ryZ14936QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem
     
  15. Aug 14, 2008 at 9:51 AM
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    Chickenmunga

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    Man I'm just stealing this thread, I do apologize. Hope the OP doesn't mind?


    Marv, I'd recommend that you copy your writeup and get a mod to a sticky it.

    I'm still aggravated though, but I think that's just the way I tick. I need some way to compare apples to apples in a concrete setting, and I just keep coming back to subjective comparisons.

    I'm just going to continue rambling now...

    Now, I went in my local shop the other day with good info that Pioneer shallow mounts were good stuff, website claims $120 or so. I listened to a 10", and it sounded flubby as could be - just a complete mess. Heard the JL 13" shallow (dealer wanted $800 with the box, sub's supposed to go for $550 or so), and it sounded fine, but I kept thinking to myself, "this doesn't sound any better than my 12" Memphis M-Class (I paid EASILY under $200, but forget the exact number) that, in comparison, I paid pocket change for." Now I have to figure
    -did they install the Pioneer poorly to get me wanting the more expensive stuff? How could I get a better comparison
    -Is the JL really worth that? Why don't I just go for entry-level Morel at that price range?
    -how can I compare these speakers if I can't get them mounted in a proper enclosure?

    I thought at the very least that I could compare build quality, but it's pretty hard as well. (Watch out folks, I'm getting back on topic here) I've had Infinity Kappa 6" coax in the doors of my old car (which were more like 5.75"), which was OK sounding, but the cones disintegrated on me. They got replaced by Planet Audio 6", which sounded better, but I have one where the soldering job was bad, and the sound could be better (too bright). I've seen Blackmores, which looked like they were built for war and felt HEAVY, but sounded mediocre - funny enough, their product was identical to Zapcos, which retailed for more than double, and sounded... much better... how the...?

    I guess what I was saying with that, what do you look at? seams? magnets? something else? does it matter? How do you determine what speaker is made better than the other and what's just a bunch of fluff (kevlar cones? wtf?)

    but when does a $2,000 subwoofer sound like a $200 subwoofer? When is it that the $80 Image Dynamics ends up being just as good as the $240 JL Audio? What's the cutoff between entry, medium, high, and stratospherical?

    In summary, is it just, "eh, these sound alright, the manufacturer rates it for X, I hope it's built well?"

    I just have a hard time throwing money out on a whim and a prayer and trusting my ears to do all the work. I keep stabbing in the dark and end up no smarter at the end of the purchase than I did in the beginning.



    /RANT:)
     
  16. Aug 14, 2008 at 10:05 AM
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    Mr Marv

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    I have a few things to finish up right now but I'll get back to this shortly. :)
     
  17. Aug 14, 2008 at 10:24 AM
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    Chickenmunga

    Chickenmunga Nuggety

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    Heh, maybe caffiene does have an effect on me in the morning. Sorry if you get keyboard blisters from me.:eek:

    I've still got that box on my mind we talked about over the phone, but as you can see, I'm still trying to fill that hole up :p
     
  18. Aug 14, 2008 at 11:40 AM
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    Mr Marv

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    No worries and that's why I don't do caffeine! :eek: Unfortunately I'm a 2 finger typer and after reading through the post below again I realized I would really have some blisters trying to type a reply to all of your questions! If you'd like to call me again I'll see if I can help make this a bit easier for you and you can type my response here if you'd like!! :D

     
  19. Aug 14, 2008 at 12:30 PM
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    Chickenmunga

    Chickenmunga Nuggety

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    Sounds like a plan - I'll gather it all up, toss it in a new post and beg for a sticky :).

    I'll try contacting you tonight 6 or 7ish!
     
  20. Aug 14, 2008 at 1:08 PM
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    sooner07

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    I'll write a response as soon as I am out of this meeting.
     
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