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08 double cab - stock deck - More bass/better quality without a sub

Discussion in 'Audio & Video' started by ddave47, Aug 10, 2008.

  1. Aug 14, 2008 at 7:37 PM
    #21
    sooner07

    sooner07 1/2 man 1/2 amazing

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    First off, audio is completely subjective. There is no way to quantify what will sound good from one person to the next as a blanket statement. There are competitions that can measure soundstage and positioning and SPL and other factors, but each of those factors plays into an individuals unique equation in the mind as to what they like. That being said, there are measurements that one can use to help better determine what may sound better or worse to them given some real experience as to what those measurements are measuring.

    1. efficiency, the measure of the SPL (a measure of sound pressure level) that a speaker will play given the input of a single watt of audio signal. This can help you get a rough order of magnitude as to how much power you will need to get your speakers to play a certain volume. You must first have an idea of how loud you like to listen to music for this to make much sense, but it is possible to quantify.

    2. power handling, this is the measure (and often inflated by less than honest brands) of how much heat energy (measured in watts) that a voice coil can dissipate before it over heats and melts. This should be an RMS (root mean square, which is a way to more or less say averaged over time) measurement not a MAX (which means a single spike that will cause the VC to arc and explode or soemthing) measurement. MAX is more unreliable than RMS since a VC can take a lot energy from a single note and not melt, but heat over time will eventually cause the VC to break down and fail. RMS does not mean that if you have a speaker rated at 50 watts and an amp rated at 100 watts that you will destroy it. In fact, often times this is a preferred setup over an amp and speaker that are matched in output rating when a user likes to listen to stuff very loud and pushes the physical limits of both. (I am a believer in that if you have an amp rated at double the rating of a speaker, in most situations you will be fine. This is because a music signal varies a lot and rarely will you be putting more than the RMS value of the VC to that speaker for an extended period of time.) I can explain my position in more detail if anyone wants to know.

    3. frequency response: this is a measure of what the drivers can play effectively. Generally this is not an issue until you start looking at subwoofers. Here it plays into how low of a note can the sub effectively play. There are other things that play a major factor, such as enclosure size, but this as a general measurement will tell you what your lower limit will be. It is also a good idea, IMO, to have a sub that plays high enough and a midbass that plays low enough that they overlap a bit (so there aren't notes that don't play smoothly). This can also be affected by passive and active crossovers, but this can also be discussed further if anyone really cares enough to ask.

    4. Cone material: this is a subjective concept but I feel it is important and have found to be pretty accurate. In general this applies to tweeters more than any other type of driver. Metal and very rigid materials tend to produce, again IMO, a brighter sound. Think cymbol crash versus a hissing sound. For me a bright tweeter gives me a headache, and thus I prefer tweeters made of a softer material such as silk. These tend to produce a less bright sounding high that is more to my liking.

    5. Other stuff that I am forgetting right now. Just ask if you want more items.


    As for your experience in the shop; I don't doubt one bit that the cheaper ub was placed into a less than ideal box, limiting its potential in the hopes that the more expensive sub would sound better enough to infuance you purchase. They are a business afterall. However, I feel like if you get around to a couple shops, take a listen, find other people with systems and listen to them, that you will be better equiped to decide what really sounds good to you.

    "funny enough, their product was identical to Zapcos, which retailed for more than double, and sounded... much better... how the...?"

    There are manufacturers that build the speakers and sell them to companies that slap thier brand on it and resell them. Sometimes you are paying for a name. That is why I like to use the T/S (Theil/Small, these are a collection of physical measurements of a speaker, some of which are mentioned above) parameters as a guide more so than brand name. And one thing to remember, the law of diminishing returns plays a big role in audio equipment. Look at how prices drop from year to year as the newer better faster strong items come out. There really aren't all that many advances from year to year, but rather better marketing (this is again my opinion, but in general I feel to be very true).

    Installation is the biggest brightest key to everything here, as MrMarv said. As to what the cutoff is between good, better, best, orgasmic... that is totally subjective. If you can't hear the difference between a $50 Kenwood tornado sub and a JL W7 and an IDMAX, then buy the kenwood sub and be happy that you didn't spend another $400 on nothing special. If you don't notice any differance between a $1000 zapco amp that is rated at 100w per channel and a $100 Pyramid amp that is rated a bazillion watts (and the terminal posts are for 8awg power and ground wire) and it has the channels you need and the other bells and whistles ( plexitop, fan, neon lights, special pixie dust that makes your jimmy bigger) then by all means, buy that pile of crap and be happy. But if you hear a difference and it is worth it to you and you have the money, then I say more power to you and there is no shame in buying what you like.

    You may not like this part, but ; sometimes it takes some experimenting and buying of a few different peices of equipment to find what you really like. Much like I know I don't like Nike shoes because I have had a few pair and they didn't fit me well, where as New Balance does fit me. There is nothing wrong with the Nike, it is just made for someone else. Same with audio stuff, you just have to find what you like that fits your budget and makes you happy.

    I am sure there are more things that I could mention or just forgot, but I think this is a good start. Please ask questions, I have no qualms with explaining myself and will admit if I am wrong. I really don't give a shit what you buy in the end, I just want to help you understand and enjoy the audio aspect of a vehicle and try and keep you from making mistakes I have made.
     
  2. Aug 14, 2008 at 9:27 PM
    #22
    ddave47

    ddave47 [OP] Member

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    I checked out those pioneer preimer's on ebay and they look pretty good. for about $100 shipped. It looks like they are 80watts rms, is there a possibility I could be disappointed with the sound quality (not sound level) coming from these when powered off of the stock deck?

    thx!!
     
  3. Aug 14, 2008 at 10:00 PM
    #23
    Mr Marv

    Mr Marv 1-831-383-0308 7am-10pm pst Vendor

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    Unfortunately that is always a possibility with any aftermarket speakers due to the processing built into the factory headunit. :(

    BTW, nice post sooner! :)
     
  4. Aug 14, 2008 at 11:00 PM
    #24
    Chickenmunga

    Chickenmunga Nuggety

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    This is actually really neat, Marv and I had a good long discussion, and now I also have sooner's post. You guys arrived at pretty much the same conclusion, but have different methods of getting there - each conversation complements the other. It's a bit late tonight, but I have some notes and I'll try to compile them to one post.

    If I can add just a tidbit, think of it this way: you can't sound any worse, and you will now have something when you are ready for any additional upgrades. Above anything, make sure that the ebay seller is reputable - I like to buy in credit when possible for the added safety. Paypal setup with a credit card works quite well.
     
  5. Aug 17, 2008 at 11:36 PM
    #25
    ddave47

    ddave47 [OP] Member

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    I have decided to go with a 6.5" component kit. My thinking is that I would like to replace the stock tweeter and if I do the kit I can keep everything at 4ohms and run a 4 channel amp with 6.5 coax in the rear.

    First question, if I run all 4 speakers off of two channels, I would have a 2 ohm load (running each side in parallel). Now, as far as sound quality goes, does a 4 ohm or 2 ohm load matter to a channel on an amp? We are talking about full range speakers here not subs.

    Also, my budget is about $100 per pair. I have narrowed my choices down to the pioneer TS-D720C component kit or the Polk MOMO, MMC6500

    Any thoughts on these?

    thanks!
     
  6. Aug 18, 2008 at 7:30 AM
    #26
    sooner07

    sooner07 1/2 man 1/2 amazing

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    The change from 4 ohms to 2 ohms will not be an issue as long as the amp is stable at 2 ohms. Check the manufacturer's specifications for that information.
     
  7. Aug 18, 2008 at 8:43 AM
    #27
    Mr Marv

    Mr Marv 1-831-383-0308 7am-10pm pst Vendor

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    As sooner mentioned it will be fine at 2 ohms as long as the amp is stable but you will not be able to adjust levels between the front/rear speakers on the fly unless the amp has a remote level control or you add an L-pad. IMO the TS-D720C is a great set for that price range however it's been a long time since I had the Momo's so I can't offer an opinion on how those would compare.
     
  8. Aug 18, 2008 at 9:17 AM
    #28
    ddave47

    ddave47 [OP] Member

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    I have read that if you run a speaker in 2 ohm it will have less sound quality when compared to running it at 4 ohm. Is this true? Could I notice the SQ difference?
     
  9. Aug 18, 2008 at 9:31 AM
    #29
    Mr Marv

    Mr Marv 1-831-383-0308 7am-10pm pst Vendor

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    More myth's unfortunately :( and actually the speaker(s) determines the load that the amp "sees" so it is the amp "running" at 2 or 4 ohms. In any case I just noticed you said you will be running a 4 channel amp. Why not just run each speaker on it's own channel?
     
  10. Aug 18, 2008 at 11:14 AM
    #30
    ddave47

    ddave47 [OP] Member

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    I was going to run each speaker on a channel, but I was thinking if in the future I wanted to add a sub, I could bridge two channels and run the other two to all 4 speakers.
    Any thoughts?

    Dave
     
  11. Aug 18, 2008 at 11:45 AM
    #31
    Mr Marv

    Mr Marv 1-831-383-0308 7am-10pm pst Vendor

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    It's always good to plan for the future :) and that will work fine however when you decide to add the sub I would suggest getting an L-pad between the front/rear speakers so you have a way to adjust the output levels. Also, I noticed in your other thread you were limiting your budget to around $100.00 for the amp. You may be able to get a "good" amp for that amount however if I might offer a little unsolicited advice :D maybe you could put off the rear speakers for now and open your budget a little more for the amp. If you could do that I would suggest looking at the Pioneer Premier PRS-D4100F full range class d. It's small enough to fit under your seat, has plenty of power IMO, will be less taxing on your electrical system, has speaker level hook-up and can be had for a very reasonable price on eBay since it is last years model (or you could check with Coheednme13 as he recently had a new one for sale)
     
  12. Aug 19, 2008 at 8:02 PM
    #32
    ddave47

    ddave47 [OP] Member

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    I picked up a PRS-D4100F for $173 shipped. not bad for class D. Thanks for the advice again Mr Marv... Now I just have to get the components!!

    dave



     
  13. Aug 19, 2008 at 8:52 PM
    #33
    Mr Marv

    Mr Marv 1-831-383-0308 7am-10pm pst Vendor

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    Good choice and you're welcome! :)
     

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