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2016 OVTune Tacoma 3.5L Manual Transmission / Engine ECU Reflash

Discussion in '3rd Gen. Tacomas (2016+)' started by OVTune, Oct 18, 2017.

  1. Mar 14, 2019 at 7:35 PM
    Melmantaco

    Melmantaco Well-Known Member

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    This is something ive never had. I get where the throttle will go dead when i slow down them engage a lower gear and go to throttle match. I suppose i rarely "launch" my truck but i do accelerate hard from a start at times. But i let the throttle out with about 2k into clutch release then put my foot into it and my tires spin good. I guess it depends how you drive. I cant see am advantage to dumping the clutch unless you are either drag racing or trying to do a burn out..
     
  2. Mar 14, 2019 at 9:41 PM
    CaptainVoodoo

    CaptainVoodoo Well-Known Member

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    Dumping the clutch on a truck just isnt intuitive at all lol of course we are going to bog down if we try to do a real clutch dump, we aren't driving a Civic...
     
  3. Mar 15, 2019 at 12:37 AM
    MOC221_

    MOC221_ 3rd Gen GinGer StepchilD

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    Let's not get too far into the rhubarb guys... what @iexc stated is true, when not moving/clutch in the throttle response is always the same - sharp. You can stab it as many times as you want, it won't change. As soon as you're rolling though, it's a crap shoot. This makes rev matching annoying at times. It's not about launching or dumping the clutch. Just normal rev matching.

    ..and yes this issue was present but far, far worse on the factory calibration (04B10 for me). When/if the code get fixed, it will need street testing to get right.
     
    Last edited: Mar 15, 2019 at 2:40 AM
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  4. Mar 15, 2019 at 2:37 AM
    CaptainVoodoo

    CaptainVoodoo Well-Known Member

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    I don't have any problem rev matching on downshift, but if I understood correctly, I seem to be doing it a bit differently and maybe higher in the revs than most. Let me share.

    For example, if I come down to a turn already slow down to 60 kph in 3rd or 4th, I let go the throttle and depress the clutch, then give a good bunch of gas to bring it above 3500 rpm. I then let go the throttle for a split second and by the time I clutch back in 2nd and reapply throttle, the rpm as settle back down to 3500 rpm and I now have most of the power available under the foot, no slipping (most of the time lol), no bogging down. 3500 is the sweet spot for power, but I'll do the same at any rpm and have the same result.

    More or less the same when coming down to a stop, I just don't reapply throttle when clutching in and let it engine brake to a speed where if I downshift I'll be at 3500 rpm in the next gear. Then again, just like for power, 3500 rpm seems to be where I'll get the most engine braking.

    But I have average to bad MPG, on FOB91, might be winter gas, I'll give a try to FOB87 on 91 gas. Especially since I may have some preignition issue right now, I noticed some rattling at idle and low rpm.
     
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  5. Mar 15, 2019 at 2:52 AM
    MOC221_

    MOC221_ 3rd Gen GinGer StepchilD

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    It looks like you've figured out something that works for you, and that's great. I guess the whole point is displayed right here in the paragraph you just wrote - it's way too complicated for a blip lol - Let up on throttle, disengage clutch, change to a lower gear, blip throttle to correct rpm, release clutch. I should be able to do this smoothly at any speed/rpm I want (within reason). Smoothness and how fast I pull this off SHOULD be on me and repeatable within the mechanical limits of the truck (I mean, it's not like shifting a sporty car). With Toyota's mess of a calibration, it's not repeatable. Even if there was a slight delay, as long as it was consistent I could get used to that. When the target is always moving, it's harder to hit the bull (that one is for you, @mZiggy :)).
    Anyway, I'm not ragging on you my friend.
     
    Last edited: Mar 15, 2019 at 2:57 AM
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  6. Mar 15, 2019 at 3:04 AM
    CaptainVoodoo

    CaptainVoodoo Well-Known Member

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    I agree it seems complicated when explained and might be a split second slower than your technique, but it's all happening rather quickly and now that I found a way to shift smoothly both up and down, I just need to work on my shift time.

    FOB91 and the ADM made everything a lot easier too, especially when shifting at lower rpm like 2000.
     
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  7. Mar 15, 2019 at 3:09 AM
    MOC221_

    MOC221_ 3rd Gen GinGer StepchilD

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    Yep, that combination has been the gold standard so far on my truck (excepting mpg). I can recall *shudder* what it was like on the factory calibration with an accumulator trying to pull off a reasonably quick 1-2 upshift ~ 2000RPM. LOL holy fuck the clunking/clanging and bucking was nuts.
    If I was to loan Mat my truck for testing, I'd have to insist he drive it on 04B10 in the city for a bit to feel the pain.
     
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  8. Mar 15, 2019 at 3:27 AM
    CaptainVoodoo

    CaptainVoodoo Well-Known Member

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    I think 04B40 was better, but the shift were still inconsistent. I was desperately shy of trying to go up to 6000 rpm in 1st because if the horrible rev hang and the hellish transmission bang when engaging the 2nd. Felt like a noob, which I was lol Still am.
     
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  9. Mar 15, 2019 at 4:16 AM
    Melmantaco

    Melmantaco Well-Known Member

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    Can someone explain this rev hang and why its so bad? Please
     
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  10. Mar 15, 2019 at 4:57 AM
    MOC221_

    MOC221_ 3rd Gen GinGer StepchilD

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    For me, it's most annoying when upshifting at high(er) RPM. You have to wait...... for the RPM to fall enough so that you don't get excessive slippage or rough engagement. Yes, the flywheel weight is a factor in this but not the whole story. The revs are being held up artificially by the ECM. If you read up on it, it's actually quite widely done in M/T vehicles to reduce emissions (something about a sudden change in crankcase pressure resulting in more pollution causing vapors to be burned via the PCV valve).
     
    Last edited: Mar 15, 2019 at 5:03 AM
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  11. Mar 15, 2019 at 5:07 AM
    FtWayne Gen3

    FtWayne Gen3 Active Member

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    I can support this finding. I wonder if its more of a "safety" or precautionary measure put in for throttle by wire. (To be clear, I do not want or like it either way). Someone described it as its ECU lag, and I would agree, but my opinion is its actually there and the lag is purposeful to prevent 'unintended accelerations'...just a thought. I think its terrible either way. I had a rental car one time and I was making a left in front of on coming traffic and I depressed the accelerator for a short duration to move the car forward a bit and then I had my opening and probably gave it 50% throttle and nothing happened, I actually thought the car stalled and I did the only thing a man in his right mind would do in that situation...I pushed that pedal through the floor and after about 2-3 seconds (felt like 20) the car got through the intersection.

    Anyways, I wonder if there is a way to disable it? Remove it?

    I'd be interested if anyone gets the same results with traction and stability control completely off? (I will try on my way home tonight)
     
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  12. Mar 15, 2019 at 5:22 AM
    iexc

    iexc the ONLY Opponent of DFCO a REVHANG

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    That’s it !! That’s the problem,nothing to do with any kind of racing.i haven’t noticed this above 2700 rpm.

    Your just casual driving and you blip the throttle to down shift,You realize your off a touch by feel of the unmatched engagement so you disengage the clutch only slightly to quickly bring on some more throttle.
    If the throttle is responsive no problem.but it’s not!!
    So now you have to decide to ether ride the clutch for a smooth engagement (wear it )or disengage and start all over.(time loss)
     
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  13. Mar 15, 2019 at 5:44 AM
    iexc

    iexc the ONLY Opponent of DFCO a REVHANG

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    Do this this test.
    Be stoped -clutch engaged blip the throttle. Now press the clutch only 1-2inches, this will open or close the upper sensor (this is not the starter sensor on the lower end of the peddle)blip the throttle again.

    You will notice a difference in the throttle response indicating that throttle by wire is not the issue.

    Do this test again while moving as slow as 2mph, you should now notice the response is gone.

    It seems to me Toyota is limiting in certan scenarios when you can have a responsive throttle.
    My best guess it has something to do with emissions.
     
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  14. Mar 15, 2019 at 5:45 AM
    Melmantaco

    Melmantaco Well-Known Member

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    I still dont see the issue. If the revs are a touch high it makes it smooher to release clutch when upshift. Makes it so you don't have to keep reving to get throttle uo for shift....how is this a problem. When you release the clutch it just slows the motor to match drivetrain speed
     
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  15. Mar 15, 2019 at 6:00 AM
    MOC221_

    MOC221_ 3rd Gen GinGer StepchilD

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    I guess it's just another one of those things that annoys some but not all. Personally I drive a stick for the control (and I enjoy it). I don't need the ECM doing things for me that I can do myself when it comes to driveability. If you drive/shift this thing slowly and deliberately, well it's not a problem. That seems to be the point of the Toyota calibration.
    BTW, don't get the idea that you're going to have to accept a tune with rev hang removed, just because some of us don't like it. We don't know how this will play out yet.
    I'm not calling you out for your opinion or anything else.
     
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  16. Mar 15, 2019 at 6:09 AM
    MOC221_

    MOC221_ 3rd Gen GinGer StepchilD

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    Yes and this SHOULD be something that can be addressed in the calibration (although only Mat knows for sure). That upper switch on the clutch is called the Cruise control switch. The ECM absolutely knows when you disengage the clutch, the question is - can this input be manipulated to "use" a specific map that gives a consistent throttle response at any speed (ie the neutral map). Dunno, but as we've seen plenty of times, the more Mat digs around the better things get. If you don't ask the question you'll never get anywhere.
     
    Last edited: Mar 15, 2019 at 6:37 AM
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  17. Mar 15, 2019 at 6:40 AM
    Melmantaco

    Melmantaco Well-Known Member

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    Never thought anything negative. Not upset. Just carrying the discussion and looking for perspective
     
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  18. Mar 15, 2019 at 6:52 AM
    MOC221_

    MOC221_ 3rd Gen GinGer StepchilD

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    Understood. You never know on TW lol.
     
  19. Mar 15, 2019 at 6:54 AM
    tonered

    tonered tacorider

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    I would be a fan of removing that switch from the equation. It could be a permanent Clutch Start Cancel situation. I have had cars (2001 saab) and bikes (2013 Ural) that came that way from the factory and have modded others to act that way. For as trouble prone as I am, I have never had a problem in this situation and it has helped, just like CSC does at times.

    Yes. We would be taking some personal responsibility since the Taco would move if in gear. This might cross that line that @OVTune might not want to cross with respect to safety systems though?
     
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  20. Mar 15, 2019 at 6:55 AM
    Melmantaco

    Melmantaco Well-Known Member

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    True that!
     

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