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3rd Gen HID vs LED vs Halogen H11 projector headlights

Discussion in '3rd Gen. Tacomas (2016+)' started by crashnburn80, Jan 25, 2019.

  1. Jun 20, 2019 at 7:04 PM
    #1281
    trazerr

    trazerr Well-Known Member

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    Those are two of the nicest Portland suburbs we have ha I work just inside Lake O, but live in west Beaverton/Tigard area. Close to the farm land so it’s so so at least. Still not my cup of tea. It’s a bit cheaper out my way at least lol Unfortunately the Oregon housing market is still stupid hot, but coming from Hawaii you should be just fine.
     
    El Duderino likes this.
  2. Jun 20, 2019 at 7:07 PM
    #1282
    El Duderino

    El Duderino Howzit \000/

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    Yea that’s where my wife wants to live( I don’t). I want to live in Damascus, Boring, or Sandy. But to get her out of Hawaii I needed to make some concessions also schools are very important that’s one of the main reasons we are leaving Hawaii.
     
  3. Jun 20, 2019 at 7:15 PM
    #1283
    trazerr

    trazerr Well-Known Member

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    My boss commutes from Sandy. He actually just bought a house even farther east of Sandy. His commute was 45min before with no traffic. It will now be closer to an hour ha And he drives an old lifted F250 most of the time. Lately he has been steeling his wife’s SUV though.

    Well, hate to break it to you but Oregon schools rank m even worse than Hawaii. We are one of the worst states in the country actually. Lol For k-12 that I believe.
     
  4. Jun 20, 2019 at 7:41 PM
    #1284
    El Duderino

    El Duderino Howzit \000/

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    Yea I know but private school is much cheaper there lol. I live in the country side schools my daughter would have to attend are absolutely dreadful.
     
  5. Jun 21, 2019 at 10:06 PM
    #1285
    crashnburn80

    crashnburn80 [OP] Vehicle Design Engineer

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    Go Hawks!
    Diode Dynamics SL1 LED Headlight

    aDDXFmbPSE2qMCbgpagIjQ.jpg

    Unlike most replacement LED companies, Diode Dynamics takes a more scientific approach to their products and how they market and sell them. Many companies talk output output in raw lumens and increases in output over the previous model, but what is far more important in a replacement LED product is focus. Rather than talking about increases in output the conversations should center around decreases in size, as that delivers higher focus which is far more effective in increasing output and projection than more lumens.

    One of the things that caught my eye with Diode Dynamics was their video on focus:

    https://youtu.be/WGmoDtdNqIk

    The science of increasing optical focus for improved automotive lighting performance is nothing new. It has been around for decades. Increased focus is why the GE H11 halogen bulbs perform exceptionally well, despite being lower power draw that a stock halogen bulb.

    SL1 Specs:
    Stable lumens: 1630 per bulb (not raw)
    Color temp: 5700k
    Watts: 20.2
    Cooling: Active fan
    Heat sink material: Zinc

    Measured:
    Color temp: 5694k (spot on spec)
    Watts: 20.2 (spot on spec)
    CRI: 75

    It should be obvious by now that LED emitters need the correct height and length to replicate a halogen filament. But they also need the correct width, which is where the focus conversation comes into play and what very few discuss. In a halogen based lighting assembly you increase focus by shrinking the light source, aka the filament. To project and perform better than stock, the light source needs to be smaller than stock, which begs the question, just how large is a stock filament? Being encapsulated in glass that is a bit difficult to accurately measure. The solution seemed pretty obvious.

    fullsizeoutput_104d.jpg

    The above is a low performance long life H11 Philips bulb. Halogen bulbs are pressurized, so they will explode outward if the glass is broken. Wearing the appropriate safety equipment and covering the bulb, I broke the glass with a C-clamp in a controlled fashion as to not damage the filament. Sounded like a small caliber gun shot due to the pressurization.

    The stock halogen cross section for standard focus, 1.42mm.

    fullsizeoutput_1054.jpg

    How does that compare to the DD LED? Measuring Diode Dynamics LED cross section, 3.03mm.

    fullsizeoutput_104f.jpg

    If you paid careful attention, you'll notice my measurements differ from what was presented in the earlier video. The Diode Dynamics' LED uses recessed emitters, which can help make the LED cross section smaller providing better focus while maintaining more material for cooling. However, it also means that you cannot measure the distance between the chip faces with traditional digital calipers, as the body is in the way so you cannot get an accurate reading of the cross section. To work around the issue in the video, the measurement of the emitter mounting plate was presented without the emitters, while comparing to the measurements of the outer face of other competing LEDs emitters. There is always a right tool for the job, I purchased a new digital caliper specifically designed to work around this issue to get accurate data.

    The Diode Dynamics LEDs are over 2x the size of a standard long life H11 halogen bulb. In halogens, gains are made with making the filaments fractions of a millimeter smaller. While better than many LEDs, being 2x the size is a significant focus and projection performance loss.

    So enough with all this technical stuff, how do they perform?

    Pattern testing at 18'
    Stock Lux: 623 vs DD Lux: 752
    ZiwsFAoSSGup1Y1CmhHsYw.jpg

    Compared to the XD LEDs where the hotspot was dipped far down into the beam pattern, when it should be near the cut off, the DD LED does far better. The peak beam intensity is up near the cut off, where it should be. However, while the intensity location is better, the pattern does not have quite the same focus as the stock H11 halogen, while focus has improved the hotspot does not have the same level of definition. Hot spot concentration means everything for focus and distance projection.

    Comparing to the stock wattage GE +130
    GE +130 Lux: 1086 vs DD Lux: 752
    5SYBbmUsQai8w9Rr3cfPdQ.jpg

    Note how well illuminated the uplight is above the cut off.

    upload_2019-6-21_21-39-40.jpg

    Too many tests end here, with one measurement at a fixed point, typically 20-25ft from a wall. A single data point does not provide very much information, what we really want is distance projection trajectory, which we do not get from a single data point.

    Lux testing at 42'
    Stock Lux: 144 vs DD Lux: 128
    4IaY5tejTvebB0qlZRo0uQ.jpg

    At 42' stock H11 bulbs have higher lux output than the Diode Dynamics LEDs in a 3rd Gen Projector. Plotting the intensity over distance.

    DDtest.jpg

    Plotting results is always illuminating to facilitate a better understanding of the data, a few different things stand out.
    1) Halogen intensity slope of the stock H11 Osrams and the GE +130 is parallel and the intensity slope of the LEDs is parallel.
    2) Halogens project more efficiently in the halogen housing, maintaining higher intensity over distance.
    3) The GE +130s do not put out more lumens than the stock Osram H11s, in fact they may put out less due to consuming lower power. The performance difference between the two is focus, and the GEs provide superior focus.
    4) The XD LEDs are actually higher in output than the DD LEDs (1750 vs 1630 stable lumens) but the DD LEDs outperform the XD LEDs for the same reason the GEs outperform the stock Osram bulbs, focus. This demonstrates how focus is more critical than lumen output.
    5) What is not shown in the chart is that the XD LED info is taken from the hotspot, which is not in the correct location and dipped far further down in the beam pattern as covered in the original post. Meaning the DD LEDs are actually quiet a bit better than the XD LEDs than the chart implies.

    What matters most in headlights is distance projection. Testing conducted in this review was at 42', which in the grand scheme is very small, which is about 2.25 Tacoma lengths. At speed you need to see objects far further away than 2.25 vehicle lengths.

    The Raw data:
    upload_2019-6-21_22-10-59.jpg

    As LEDs get hot, they heat soak and output reduces/stabilizes at lower levels. After 40 minutes of runtime, lux output of the Diode Dynamics LEDs reduced to 704 lux measured at 18', representing a loss of ~6.3% from initial to stable output. All LEDs lose output as they get hot, active cooled (fan based) LEDs tend to lose less as the cooling is more effective. 6.3% is slightly better than average for actively cooled LEDs. It is also worth noting these LEDs are the first I've seen to use Zinc heat sinks rather than aluminum. Zinc thermal conductivity (cooling efficiency) is not as good as aluminum, meaning that aluminum cools better. So why would one use it instead? Honestly I did not know the answer to that one, it just seemed very strange. You do not need to be a materials expert to notice this as zinc is much heavier. So googling on the subject, it looks like Zinc provides superior shielding for EMI and RFI, which are important traits to suppress. It also costs a fair amount less than aluminum. I am unsure of DD's exact reasoning for using Zinc.

    What I find most interesting about this data, is that despite Diode Dynamics having a much better design than XD LEDs, delivering better focus for higher output even while using a lower output light source, projection losses were parallel with those of the XD LED. Even though their LEDs are over 2x larger than a halogen, they are still a fair amount smaller than the XD LEDs, yet the projection efficiency over distance effectively remained unchanged. I'll have to think on this a bit, but it is quite interesting.

    While the Diode Dynamics LEDs are effectively 18% better in intensity output projection than the XD LEDs, they do a far better job in locating the hot spot location near the pattern cut off where it should be, helping to reduce the shift to foreground light. However, projection losses remain an issue. Hopefully Diode Dynamics can work to further reduce the size of their LEDs and improve the distance projection in future versions of their lights.

    Notes:
    1) While GE +130s were used in this post for easy comparison to the original post, the GE Xenon +120 bulbs are a higher performing stock wattage bulb than the GE +130s.
    2) A typical mistake in LED testing is using an incandescent grade meter which cannot accurately measure LEDs. All measurements in these tests were taken with a full spectrum NIST traceable digital spectrometer.
    3) Tests were run at 13.8v, which is the measured voltage at the headlight connector with the truck running. Many comparisons online are run at artificially low voltage causing significant performance losses to halogens, but not the LEDs, giving an unrealistic output comparison.
    4) The stock bulb used is an OEM H11 Osram standard bulb removed from a stock Tacoma.
    5) While Diode Dynamics lists output as 'Street Legal', replacement LEDs are not yet legal, meaning they are federally illegal and will cause your vehicle to fail inspection in states that perform them.
     
    Last edited: Jul 18, 2019
  6. Jun 21, 2019 at 10:47 PM
    #1286
    El Duderino

    El Duderino Howzit \000/

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    Sadly people still won’t believe it.
     
  7. Jun 22, 2019 at 3:54 AM
    #1287
    Frank_Zuccarini

    Frank_Zuccarini Obscure Member

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    Disappointing, but a very interesting/informative read.

    Thanks much................ Frank
     
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  8. Jun 22, 2019 at 7:13 AM
    #1288
    ET340f

    ET340f Well-Known Member

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    I have poured through most of this now, I am picking up my OR this afternoon and want a stock replacement for the projectors.. The H11 GE +130 0r +120 is the way to go I take it? For the fogs I am going to use the Rigid kit they sell, NOT the ones form the TRD PRO.
     
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  9. Jun 22, 2019 at 9:51 AM
    #1289
    crashnburn80

    crashnburn80 [OP] Vehicle Design Engineer

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    For bulbs the GE Xenon +120 or modifying the Philips H9 for low beams. The GEs will be a little whiter.

    For fogs, I would recommend the selective yellow version of the Rigids. The white ones are a bit blue.

    All SAE fogs:
    https://www.tacomaworld.com/threads/the-led-sae-j583-fog-pod-fog-light-review.554813/

    Rigid selective yellow:
    https://www.tacomaworld.com/threads...fog-light-review.554813/page-14#post-18889711
     
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  10. Jun 22, 2019 at 10:01 AM
    #1290
    ET340f

    ET340f Well-Known Member

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    So we are on the same page then, awesome.

    Greta info in this post, thanks!
     
    crashnburn80 [OP] likes this.
  11. Jun 22, 2019 at 12:18 PM
    #1291
    LTG4087

    LTG4087 Well-Known Member

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    Looked around a bit and it didn't jump out to me as to what the life expectancy of the high performance halogens tested here are. I've got a set of Osram Night Breaker 150's and although they are a big improvement over OEM in my 3rd gen OR, they come with a very short life expectancy and are still on the yellow side. That's reasons I've been hoping a serviceable LED would come to market.
     
  12. Jun 22, 2019 at 1:01 PM
    #1292
    crashnburn80

    crashnburn80 [OP] Vehicle Design Engineer

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    The GEs are 150hrs IIRC, the Philips H9s are 250hrs. For comparison I run 200hr Osram Hyper H4s and they last about exactly 1 year with my use.
     
  13. Jun 23, 2019 at 8:16 PM
    #1293
    CAG Gonzo

    CAG Gonzo Ascendant Spaghetti

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    I read this whole thread to get the best halogens. Went with the Phillips H9's from Amazon. Got 4, all made in Germany, along with an H11 extension which was easily adapted to service H9's. Thanks to everyone, especially OP, for compiling a crapton of data and user experiences to make this purchase smooth.

    Like others, I had to trim a bit of the top, large flange of the H9 to get it to slot into the socket and rotate. I just turned the lights on with the truck on to verify everything looks good. Not gonna lie, I don't know for sure what changed because it might just be confirmation bias, but the light does seem a bit whiter and brighter. Haven't been on the road yet but I figure the fill/spread/throw should look better and crisper.

    Do I need to realign the bulbs at all? Don't recall seeing anyone mention that here. Things look OK but I don't want to be an asshole on the road. On that note, these bulbs don't have glare caps while the stock Oaram H11's did. Is that a concern?
     
  14. Jun 23, 2019 at 9:26 PM
    #1294
    crashnburn80

    crashnburn80 [OP] Vehicle Design Engineer

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    That is a lot of reading! I try to keep post 2 & 3 up to date to spare people the trouble.

    Some have said they feel the 3rd Gen headlights are aligned low from the factory, and get better results adjusting them up a bit.

    Glare caps are required for open face reflectors, the glare shield in the projector mitigates the glare, so running a non-glare capped bulb it isn’t an issue in the 3rd Gen projector.
     
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  15. Jun 23, 2019 at 9:46 PM
    #1295
    CAG Gonzo

    CAG Gonzo Ascendant Spaghetti

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    I try to read the full thread before posting and/or taking action (like buying stuff). Most people don't end up updating the first few posts like you did. Stellar work for sure!

    I'll assess how the new bulbs work for a few days before I attempt a realignment. Happy to hear the glare caps aren't a factor. Upgrading fogs will be next (reading your Fog Pod thread now). This thread made me realize why I like my fogs on at night: having that wider beam coverage enhances my awareness. I can see the sides of the road near the front of the truck. I'm paranoid something or someone is going to sneak into that "blind spot" one of these days.
     
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  16. Jun 24, 2019 at 7:29 AM
    #1296
    savage24x

    savage24x Member

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    I love your Tahu profile pic...

    An oversaturation of foreground light will draw the eyes to the close fog light region, and limit the distance your eyes can see. It's recommended to not run foglights unless in a fog or bad weather situation. It's also why a lot of guys modify projectors with foreground limiters. It's a limitation of the human body that we cannot overcome. There's an entire website dedicated to optics and further proves this point. https://www.danielsternlighting.com/tech/lights/fog_lamps/fog_lamps.html

    "Of course, it must also be understood that all lamp performance standards specify a minimum acceptable performance. Extremely high-performing fog lamps are quite rare, but they do exist. And under abnormal driving conditions (very thick fog, very heavy snow) they can be of some help. That's the key point: fog lamps are meant to be used in heavy fog, rain, or snow to help the driver see the edges of the road close to the car so s/he can safely make progress through foul weather at very low speeds. That is all these lamps are designed, intended, and able to do, and most of the ones available as factory or optional equipment or in the aftermarket aren't even capable of doing that. And as explicated in dense scientific detail in this study(pdf), it just doesn't make anything better—though there is the potential for a real safety improvement by using a red rear fog lamp.

    Fog lamps of any type should not be used in dry weather.Leaving the fog lamps on at all times does not actually improve the lighting safety performance or the driver's ability to see, though many people do so in the mistaken belief that they can see better this way at normal road speeds in dry weather. In fact, a systematic study done by one of North America's preëminent traffic safety research institutes shows that in the United States more people inappropriately use their front fog lamps in dry weather than use them properly in poor weather.

    Why? Because we human beings generally can't accurately tell how well or how poorly we see. We have subjective impressions, reactions, and feelings about how "good" or "bad" our headlamps are, and they feel very real to us, but they're very far out of line with the objective, measurable, real lighting performance and seeing ability. It's not that we're fooling ourselves, it's that our visual systems just aren't equipped to correctly assess how well or how poorly we can see. The primary driver for a subjective impression of "good" headlighting is foreground light—and remember, that's what fog lamps produce—but foreground light is very far down the list of factors that go into the actual, real safety performance of the car's lighting system; that is, how well it actually lets the driver see what must be seen to avoid a crash. In clear conditions, though it makes us feel (falsely) more secure, more foreground light is not a good thing, it's a bad thing. Of course, some foreground light is necessary so you can use your peripheral vision to see where you are relative to the road edges, the lane markings and that pothole 20 feet in front of your left wheels.

    But foreground light is far less safety-critical than light cast well down the road into the distance, because at any significant speed (much above 25 mph), what's in the foreground is too close for you to do much about. That is, at normal road speeds, whatever is close enough to be within the foreground light is too close for you to avoid hitting. If you increase the foreground light (such as by turning on the fog lamps), your pupils react to the brighter pool of foreground light by constricting, which in turn substantially reduces your distance vision—especially since there's no increase in down-the-road distance light to go along with the increased foreground light. This is also the reason why it is not appropriate to have fog lamps lit with the high beam headlamps: if you're going fast enough to need high beams, you definitely don't want to spoil your distance vision by overly lighting the foreground.

    So all in all, when we use front fog lamps inappropriately, we feel like our seeing is better than it really is and we unconsciously adjust our driving to match how safe we feel. That, in turn, makes us less safe!"
     
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  17. Jun 24, 2019 at 11:44 AM
    #1297
    replica9000

    replica9000 ./$0|./$0&

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    Supposedly too much foreground light, while not helpful, also hasn't been proven to be harmful either.

    Screenshot_20190319-181138.jpg
     
  18. Jun 24, 2019 at 12:26 PM
    #1298
    CAG Gonzo

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    Bionicle was the shit back in the day.
     
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  19. Jul 1, 2019 at 9:37 PM
    #1299
    crashnburn80

    crashnburn80 [OP] Vehicle Design Engineer

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    Projects are stacking up, time to hammer out these Morimoto XBs!

    92C7FD45-AC27-490F-9627-3E11322298CC.jpg
     
  20. Jul 2, 2019 at 6:35 AM
    #1300
    tacomaTJ04

    tacomaTJ04 Well-Known Member

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    You got 4, so are running the Phillips H9’s in the low and high beams?
     

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