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4th generation - timing? details?

Discussion in '3rd Gen. Tacomas (2016+)' started by VeeSix, Nov 16, 2020.

  1. Sep 10, 2021 at 12:36 AM
    #161
    Carmaker1

    Carmaker1 Well-Known Member

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    I updated my post.

    Haha, I tried not to comment on that for a very long time, as it's too close to home for me. All things T6 are not necessarily my field, but my SO's. I work with 1/2 to 3/4 ton (ie T3 and next gen). From what I recall, it wasn't quite done yet, but being studied. I never liked the idea personally, even though my SO owns a Gladiator Rubi 6MT for "research" and in the end, the upcoming P703 is too much of an ambitious project for not only global against the Hilux, but the more upmarket Tacoma over here.

    Toyota better bring it for MY 2024, as at the end of day, I won't go broke if one teams beats the other. New Ranger will be much better than current truck and looks great in all versions, especially new Raptor. 2023MY will become difficult for Toyota, that they better start their drip feed on Gen 4 Tacoma in mid-2022 (teasing prototypes). Anyway in terms of Bronco pickup, we don't have the factory capacity to add a Bronco pickup at the sole factory shared with Ranger (MAP) and cannot justify another new USA plant at the moment, for an ICE product that is already so niche and not 100% proven in terms of sales+profits.
     
  2. Sep 10, 2021 at 12:41 AM
    #162
    Carmaker1

    Carmaker1 Well-Known Member

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    I am so sorry, it's 3:40 now and I will have to state more in a little bit. Luckily I have TH & Fr off lol. TBA is To Be Announced and TBD To Be Determined. MMC, is color coded I think. The longer acronyms are for Toyota plants. Yes, Tacoma will no longer offer a manual transmission when 2GR-FKS is gone. T24A-FTS is the new powertrain.
     
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  3. Sep 10, 2021 at 2:01 AM
    #163
    Hayrider

    Hayrider Over the hill & going down fast...

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    What the heck is “2GR-FKS” and when the last year?

    Hell in 10 to 15 years I be able to leave my keys in the ignition in my manual and not worry about it getting stolen…

    Sad World we are making, kids can break through fire walls but they can’t drive a manual transmission. Sad Sad World. And here’s something even worse is having auto power windows in vehicles! What’s the World coming to when as a person you’re to F-ing lazy to hold a button or switch for 2 to 3 seconds. Oh, that takes to much time I’m need more time to text and sleep behind the wheel. I see that crap I feel like getting a 68 one ton camper special and welding a couple of railroad tracks across the rear. Pull in front of the driver sleeping and slamming on the brakes! Then smile as they disappear from sight from the rear view mirror.
     
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  4. Sep 10, 2021 at 2:22 AM
    #164
    wiggler

    wiggler Well-Known Member

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    If they do away with manual transmission’s, and I believe they will, I will never buy a new truck from Toyota again.

    Nissan Frontier ditched the manual, and so what is left? Maybe a Chevy Colorado cause you get a front and rear locker? Nah. New ranger hopefully looks like a mini F150? I could go for it, maybe. Hopefully it’s front end doesn’t look like a minivan again. But then again, I want a truck I can work on myself.

    The market is out of control! Every truck is automatic, and has like 500 horsepower! I don’t need that shit! Maybe I’m getting old, but the options have dwindled. I’d never buy a third gen. And at the rate things are going, I probably won’t be able to afford a new truck ever again for the rest of my life.

    My 2nd gen will be pried from my cold, dead hands. Not to say I won’t buy another truck, but it won’t be a new one for $70k, this shit is unreal.
     
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  5. Sep 10, 2021 at 7:04 AM
    #165
    Gnarman

    Gnarman Well-Known Member

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  6. Sep 10, 2021 at 8:19 AM
    #166
    shakerhood

    shakerhood Well-Known Member

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    Gladiator and Tacoma are the only Manuals left
     
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  7. Sep 10, 2021 at 9:06 AM
    #167
    Hayrider

    Hayrider Over the hill & going down fast...

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    Shit! Just read you can’t even get “Americas Sports Car” (Corvette) with 3 pedals anymore‼️ What’s the World coming to? For now only the 4 banger Bronco, Jeep and 4x4 Taco. Hell even next year NASCAR boys have to go to a sequential 5 speed. They can’t even shift in an H pattern anymore. But who wouldn’t mind a sequential trans⁉️
    But who can afford a $19k trans?
     
  8. Sep 11, 2021 at 2:33 AM
    #168
    Carmaker1

    Carmaker1 Well-Known Member

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    This is 2GR-FKS, in production since 2015 and was first used in the 2016 Tacoma on September 10, 2015. Became adopted by other Lexus and Toyota models, which used older versions of the same engine block:

    2016-Toyota-Tacoma-3.5L-V6-Engine-0011.jpg

    I did mention multiple times on this forum and in my above posts, it is Fall 2023 when it all ends, because it will be redesigned inside-out and underneath. Now, I cannot speak on MY 2023 possibly dropping the manual, but that is not likely at all and it should carry on through then.

    Toyota has already spent a lot of money, shifting over the assembly tooling to Mexico, used for the TRD V6 models with the RC62F 6-Speed manual transmission.

    2020-Toyota-Tacoma-Transmission-999x667.jpg 2017-Toyota-Tacoma-TRD-Pro9.jpg
    Mating that RC62F to any newer 2.4L Turbo (T24A-FTS) or a powerful hybrid version of that, is not really workable. The torque rating is around 300 lb-ft from what I hear on the current transmission, down from the previous 2nd generation truck's RA60F which had a rating of 345 lb-ft.
    2005072_26_05_Tacoma_ACab_Interior-1500x900.jpg

    The transverse application of the new 2.4L Turbo, is rated at 317 lb-ft and will be much higher for the Tacoma and 4Runner.
    65a4f9ca6591522a040d1594f14bfa4cef42ccfe_xlarge.jpg
    Unless Toyota is committed to developing an all-new manual transmission, similar to the MTI550 in our new T6 vehicles at Ford rated at 410 lb-ft, don't expect a manual in the 2024 Tacoma. The investment just isn't there, as outside of the 3.5 V6, there is no use for it.


    2021-ford-bronco-2-door-154-1594328614.jpg


    Personally for me, I have barely entered my 30s and having owned mostly manual transmission vehicles since 16 and working now in this field for a decade, there's a deeper cultural reason for the decline and omission of manuals in the USA. Changing demographics and more.

    When learning to drive about nearly 16 years ago, I'll admit I was very privileged and my father bought my first car for me. Having immigrated to the US, my parents grew up with manual transmissions, excluding some luxury vehicles driven/owned by my grandfathers.

    Visiting Europe and Africa from stateside 25+ years back after first relocating, I was both fascinated and repulsed as a kid, at how simple mundane family vehicles like minivans or sedans, which my dad either rented (airport rentals) or family/family friends drove, were almost all manual transmissions and not solely sports cars, rally/tuners, pickups, or rugged 4x4s that "fit the character" of a row your own.

    It just seemed so weird to me and off-putting. Like seeing a stickshift Avalon or Camry XLE (not literal). That most family beige-mobiles were not soul-sucking torque converter powered cars. Felt so odd watching my dad go from our automatic Dodge Grand Caravan to piloting a similar stickshift Chrysler Voyager or VW Sharan across the pond, on the roads of London from Heathrow to greater England or on the autobahn.

    From that confusion+disgust, a weird love/hate dichotomy developed between me and the manual transmission as a kid car enthusiast. I only got to see any on vacation or in a cool uncle's car. Soon enough I became adamant as a pre-teen, my first car wouldn't be an auto and that I couldn't resist the urge anymore. I had to "join the (manual) club".

    Now, being that it wasn't my money paying for my first car, my dad wanted me behind the wheel of a safely mundane V6 compact/midsize family sedan with a lethargic 4/5-speed auto. I wanted a stickshift 4x4 or sporty compact. He was incensed at my demand for a stick new or used and called me "backward", for asking in the first place and adamantly refused to honor the request.

    At the end of the day, he was a stern middle aged doctor with a very conservative and pretentious outlook on motoring and not a budding young engineer-in-training/gearhead like I was. His idea of proper automotive taste, was owning large luxury sedans like his Jaguar XJ and newly acquired Arnage, among others. High performance stuff like AMG and BMW M/Alpina have never made any sense to him, unless deemed palatable in the case of AMG.

    And for more humble purposes for me then, a compact/midsize sedan or crossover. sufficed. I didn't deserve anything flashy nor too brash & bold or simply rugged. Even if used like an old 4Runner/4x4 or compact pickup. Had to be something inoffensive/vanilla, unibody, automatic, and safe for "image purposes".

    Rejected me getting a Tacoma X-Runner/ TRD OR, Wrangler, or FJ as a first vehicle. Considered them too big, obnoxious, and "intimidating" in his opinion for me to be driving 15 years back. He honestly hates trucks with a passion, despite living and practicing in Texas for a quarter century, in a hot bed of recreational off-roading. We are polar opposites.

    In the end, I initially lost that battle and wasn't allowed to use my savings either. With some bad-to-good luck, 9 months later I got into my first manual car after an insurance total loss reimbursement (stolen) and pushing hard for what I wanted this time and dealer-traded the almost-replacement G35 automatic out for a manual G35 Sport, which he refused on initially.

    After the automatic "G" SUV which joined the G35 in 2009 (a big shock), I quietly financed my first little car in my own name in 2013 and it was a manual transmission as well, a BRZ. Had it only 5 months, was terribly slow and useless to park in Manhattan. Moved back home to UK for my first fulltime job at JLR.

    Outside of a few luxury cars (G12 Bimmer) and Raptors, since 2013 nearly all of my vehicle collection across 4 continents are manual.

    Here in Michigan and also in Texas, I often leave my cars unlocked (when devoid of any valuables). Never been afraid to run into anywhere with them running either, PROVIDED it's one of my manuals. I am much more guarded with my fewer autos or rarer collectibles (manuals) that might prove to be susceptible to professional thieves taking a greater interest (and having the skills to steal them).

    Population and demographic changes in the US, have played into the loss of consumer desire for manuals, which exacerbated a decline in engineering for them due to lack of demand.

    As a naturalized immigrant, I have to say, a lot of us came/coming to the states have parents and/or relatives who look at cars strictly as a status symbol or point A-to-B tool. Motorsports and offroading for sport, is not a thing for many of them. Cars are not looked at the same way they are by Americans or West Europeans, as an expression of rugged individuality. My parents came from very affluent overseas upbringings 50ish-60 years back, but many friends of theirs didn't and were stuck with powerless cars, with engines smaller than 2 liters. If they could even afford a car at all.

    For them, living in a highly developed nation with high traffic, the driving experience is about being as isolated as possible from the "task" of driving and having less work to do, all while still honoring the basics and not relying fully on technology Doing your own shifting is considered to be primitive to them, best left behind in the old world.

    Americans, especially white Americans (like Germans and Australians) take greater pleasure in roughing it for fun outdoors via camping or going offroad. The rest, are not trying to do that in general, especially if not from a "Western" nation. Save for some Asian nations, typically this is not done recreationally, unless for Dakar. This indifference is typical among many African immigrants, as opposed to others. Less inclined to drive for leisurely purposes and more into automotive prestige (luxury, comfort) than being gearheads. Also much more likely to avoid manuals and chose automatics more. Not being prejudicial just my personal observation, as I would know personally. My parents and I are the only ones in my family that ever learned to drive both auto and manual. My sisters never have and hopefully won't get stranded overseas in an emergency.

    My father might have had fun driving stick on vacations in the 90s and 2000s, but is allergic to it on U.S. soil and shuns my vehicle collection at every opportunity, except my automatic 7er (same as his wife's). My mother herself, has not driven manual since 1992 when they left England the first time. She can't be bothered to drive any of my manuals, despite having learned on them and doing so for 15 years prior to moving stateside nearly 30 years ago. They have never been happy at my taste in high performance vehicles and offroading either. in being rather uppity (old world BS).

    In my free time, I offer manual driving lessons to the kids or younger relatives of acquaintances/friends/family, in addition to my own friends and family who might not know how to drive manual. Many of the adults rather arrogantly pass on it, often implying the idea there is something wrong with people who favor driving stick in this day and age (ie Fast Furious stereotypes, hickish, luddite, etc) and that they're "above it" and
    too "normal" LOL.

    Often with other young guys who are also Millennials or Gen Z, they often make the weak excuse in response, that "I just want to relax when driving bro"...SMDH These are the same clowns, whom prior to the excellent 10R80 10SP automatic for 2018, drove older automatic Mustang GTs with pride. Buying muscle cars with autos for the image. I can forgive that on a BMW 6-Series or 4-Series, but not a V8 American muscle car.

    I only feel for disabled (vets) or older people in general, who choose autos because of ailments. While I definitely roll my eyes at people who want the rugged, off-roading or sporty image for the Gram. yet cannot drive a stick to save their lives.

    Remember the 80s and 90s Toyota truck ads, showing customers slapping gears while plowing through dirt or snow? Marty McFly's truck ring a bell? That's where the rugged Toyota 4x4 image caught modern appeal beyond FJ40 and why Toyota still draws many in. I call them poseurs, but not everyone.

    Anyway, as manufacturers, we have been forced to cater these types more, since relying on actual serious enthusiasts is dead-ended business wise.

    The only excuses should be for not buying a manual Tacoma TRD or Gladiator is that "dealers are difficult", "it's not offered anymore", or "I'm disabled/my knees can't handle it". Not, "traffic is..." or "my wife can't..." Well? Then teach her! I typically drive my Raptor to work, but I have other Ford vehicles that are manual. Traffic can be awful, but it ain't that serious managing the clutch.

    Manuals have been dropped, because those of us in the business know of the many hurdles to overcome in justifying them going forward and the investment in bringing them up to par with newer automatics, isn't worth it when the public doesn't want them enough. How can a 6-Speed Manual with a lower torque rating compare to a constantly improved 10-Speed Automatic transmission? The continuous improvement in autos makes it an apple to oranges comparison and no longer justifiable.

    I do definitely blame the buying habits of certain generations, as baby boomers cannot carry the market for manuals forever. Most are elderly now and did their part buying them for many years into early retirement years. Clearly a disconnect happened somewhere and younger generations buy automatic much more as primarily driving appliances or not at all, segmenting their manual choices to certain niche products only like the WRX or Civic Si. More importantly, most Millennials and Gen Z who drive manual, typically buy pre-owned vehicles, as they cannot afford to buy new in most cases. I definitely can buy new and vote with my wallet, but I am not everyone.

    I do truly miss the days when even exotics were manual only and were mostly driven by serious enthusiasts with means and not just any stupid influencer who wants to impress and only knows how to (barely) steer, hit the gas and brakes. If you couldn't handle a 348/355 or a Diablo, you got an S600 Coupe or an SL600 or an automatic Porsche. Today every clown drives Italian exotics or high performance Euros, since DCTs/automated manuals and PDK became a thing. I respect celebrities who knew how to drive old school exotics and not today's easy as child's play cars.

    I use all of my vehicles like they were meant to be used, except for the most expensive of them that was leased until recently and bought after lease for novelty purposes.

    Even though I could go out and get anything I wanted vehicle wise (not from my salary as an FPDC engineer/FPP), I have been prudent and spent wisely, mostly avoiding above $100k and save for a few which surpassed that (leased, subsidized), have never acquired anything more than double that. I am not into exotics much, due to the tacky and poseur image which is so rampant. And more importantly, no 3rd pedal!

    TO Gnarman: (Quote Feature is messed up)

    Loves it, even as being heavily involved with Bronco and Ranger across US and Australia. The Gladiator isn't perfect, but drives very softly for what it is in our opinion. I like the slightly truckier feel of the Tacoma's gearbox, shift knob, and longer throws (when I get to drive it), over the Gladiator box which is much more car like to me. The JL/JT manual seems to refined compared to the more rugged unit in the JK, which harkens back more to the Willys style of yore.

    Jeep was very desperate to modernize the JL Wrangler (JT Gladiator) as much as possible, to satisfy its new audience that buys it as a family vehicle. since the 4 door Unlimited came out in 2006. To be honest, I don't venture off brand as I used to and typically buy/collect BMW, Ford, JLR, and Toyota vehicles only. My partner, is more open-minded and has worked for Ford much longer than me.

    I know that others experiences issues with D478 transmission, but since ours is not driven that much, can't say it's unreliable. Got a new '21 Bronco First Edition 4dr 10AT in fact (delivered weeks ago), while I am waiting for my own 2dr Badlands SQ 7MT to be fulfilled for MY 2022.
     
    Last edited: Sep 11, 2021
  9. Sep 11, 2021 at 2:34 AM
    #169
    Key-Rei

    Key-Rei Well-Known Member

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    Mom said we're not allowed to have 4th gen till we fix all the issues with 3rd gen.

    :pout:
     
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  10. Sep 11, 2021 at 3:48 AM
    #170
    wiggler

    wiggler Well-Known Member

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    Wow, I don’t disagree with 99% of what you say, but you say…….. so much. I’m so confused.
     
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  11. Sep 12, 2021 at 2:31 AM
    #171
    Alnmike

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  12. Sep 12, 2021 at 5:20 AM
    #172
    Dogtown Darren

    Dogtown Darren Well-Known Member

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    @Carmaker1, not to hijack this thread, but from your knowledge/viewpoint, when will the chip issue improve? When will the levee break and new inventory actually hit the showroom? I live in Metro Atlanta, and it is slim pickings among ALL manufacturers in my area, and I assume, the rest of the country, as well.

    I'm in the market for a new truck, but between elevated prices and little to no inventory, I'm on the sidelines waiting for inventory that may not show up for a very long time.

    Have any insight?
     
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  13. Sep 12, 2021 at 9:01 AM
    #173
    Hayrider

    Hayrider Over the hill & going down fast...

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    @Dogtown Darren,
    Well owners with clean unmolested Tacoma’s should take advantage of the this market! Check out the link to see what older Tacoma’s are selling for!

    https://bringatrailer.com/listing/2003-toyota-tacoma-33/
     
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  14. Sep 12, 2021 at 9:17 AM
    #174
    maxmk8

    maxmk8 Well-Known Member

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    Kids these days don’t even know how to tame a horse or put on horseshoes. Spoiled brats i tell you.
    I’m also going to teach mine to churn butter!
     
  15. Sep 12, 2021 at 11:14 AM
    #175
    Hayrider

    Hayrider Over the hill & going down fast...

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    God Damn about time someone started laying down the law around here!
    I also make them feed the barn animals, clean the stalls before they get breakfast to walk 6 miles in the snow up hill to school each way. After school make them do their chores and 2 hours of homework before bed @ 7 or :smack:

    :oldglory:
     
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  16. Sep 20, 2021 at 8:01 PM
    #176
    Carmaker1

    Carmaker1 Well-Known Member

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    Hi, I just saw this post. From what I know, we are having to shuffle things around and choose what gets what sooner. In some cases, we are having to delay certain redesigns and quickly rustle up minor updates to pass the time.

    I don't think the situation will improve until sometime in 2023, but I am sure you already heard that before. Toyota is the best in this regard, at managing this situation. The rest of us, are having to play favorites with our products and trust it ain't fun, when a customer base can see through your BS and act accordingly, by buying from a competitor.
     
  17. Sep 21, 2021 at 12:02 PM
    #177
    Johnny919

    Johnny919 Well-Known Member

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  18. Sep 21, 2021 at 7:28 PM
    #178
    Johnny919

    Johnny919 Well-Known Member

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    If that's the case, it would be nice to see the next gen with more torque than hp. It will make the driveability much better. I will probably get one if that's the case, fingers crossed.
     
  19. Sep 22, 2021 at 5:13 PM
    #179
    Johnny919

    Johnny919 Well-Known Member

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  20. Sep 22, 2021 at 5:28 PM
    #180
    darkomen42

    darkomen42 Member

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    I did my part, I bought a 2021 manual, even if it is probably too late to see it continue past the current models.
     

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