5vz vs 3rz?

I keep delving deeper into the performance aspect of these motors and it seems like there is a lot more aftermarket support for the 3rz and that is has a higher potential than the 5vz. Upon first glance this seems to be rooted in the fact the 3rz has a forged crank. Companies like LCE have tons of after market options for this engine and basically nothing for the 5vz.

My question is does it only boil down to the crank or is there something else I'm missing? My confusion comes from the fact that these after market components cost truck loads of dollars so if you're committed to dishing 8-10K on them how much more would it be to add a new forged crank to the ticket (seen at least one person use a Camry 3vz crank which is also forged)? I have to be missing something, I'm not too savvy on engine tech, are there a ton of hard to replace internals on the 3rz that are just flat out superior?

 

Stock crank has been proven to handle 1600 wtq.

It is a far better engine to build from. From support alone. Turbo builds are easy. Internals are cheap.

 

Could anyone estimate at what dollar amount threshold the 3rz surpasses the 5vz, assuming also that a 3rz truck is roughly $2000 less than a 5vz? I'm thinking a $6000 3rz stock then dump $6-8000 into and you'd be looking at approximately 300 rwhp? And for the 5vz - $8000 truck + $2000 used s/c, $1000 7th injector and another $1000 for exhaust and you'd be pushing around 260 rwhp. On the other hand you could go turbo and spend the same $3-4000 and push around 340 hp?

Someone school me please!

Think I might have to start pricing out a 3rz build.

 

2rz/3rz are used by many drag racers, hence the aftermarket support for rods, pistons, HG's, manifolds, etc. Plus you only need to buy 4, not 6 of each piece like the 5vz. What are your goals?

 

I'd like to have near 400 rwhp but in a sustainable manner. This would be a DD/ weekend warrior 4x4 project for me not a full time racer or anything so I'd be looking at running pump fuel and hopefully a setup that will survive over 100,000 miles.

Sounds like I'm living in the clouds.

 

What is your budget?

Either set up you need studs, HG, rods and pistons. That parts costs 50% more for the 3rz than 5vz. The turbo will be the same. the manifolds will be a bit more for the 5vz (unless you go CX racing, they are quite affordable, but with 3rz there are many, many options).
Your powerband will be pretty high up.

You will need a standalone either way.

It will cost maybe 2k more to build the 5vz up. However, it will likely give much better below the curve performance given it's substantial displacement difference.

 

http://www.lceperformance.com/Turbo-Headers-Manifolds-s/16714.htm

$700-1200 for a turbo manifold.
$800-2000 for a turbo. (Journal bearing and internally wastegated will simplify things.)
$400-800 for intercooler
$340 BOV
$ ? 4 properly sized injectors for the crank hp. (~6psi no tuning necessary)
$160 for the fuel pump
$ ? Intake tubing (unless you can find a kit)
$ ? Various vacuum hoses and other small items.


@StAndrew . Look at his build. He has a 5vz, turbo build. Another is @j0shu4

 

2rz is generally the easier to build. IIRC, changing out the head studs on the 2rz is all you need to push 400hp with ease. More aggressive cams help a lot too. Basically, just needs a top end build.

The 3rz is pretty much a stroked 2rz and isn't as popular a build as the longer con rods are generally weaker and the peak rpm's are (without an internal build) lower than the 2rz due to the longer stroke. 2.7L is pretty big for an I4.

The 5VZ is stout but has cast crank and connecting rods and the cam's are very conservative meaning to get some real performance out of the 5VZ, you should consider building the motor top and bottom. That said, the 3VZ-FE out of the Camry (not to be confused with the 3VZ-E out of the Toyota truck) is hands down the best V6 built by Toyota. The crank is forged and an exact fit in the 5VZ and the cams are much more aggressive and (there is some debate over this as the 3VZ uses a distributor so has a distributor notch on the cam IIRC) should be an exact fit in the 5VZ as well.

 

Thanks for the info, that's exactly what I was fishing for. I've read a bit on the Camry engine internals and swaps and that at least one person has actually done the crank swap. The cams seem to be a bit more controversial and it doesn't seem like anyone has actually gone through with the swap but the topic certainly arouses my curiosity.

From what I do understand about the 5vz is has a relatively short stroke and should see fairly decent gains from a more aggressive cam alone (not to mention in combination with a turbo) however in addition to the fact that literally no one has done the swap, there is much more evidence against. I recall a thread quoting Gadget saying he has experimented with different cams and found the stock 5vz cam to be the most beneficial even under supercharged applications.

I've read through your build a few times, it looks like you went fairly conservative with a basic turbo kit and fuel upgrade. How much boost do you think the stock engine can withstand and what kind of power do you think will be produced? Are you considering the crank swap and/or any kind of cam swap?

 

Ive seen a guy on customtacos.com run 17psi on a stock 5vz DD that he took the track as well but I would be hesitant to do this. I don't know the size of the turbo or how he tuned it. That said, my rule of thumb from reading around is this: 400cHP is ceiling before you go into the red, but its still pretty dark orange. Maybe ok to tune it up for some track runs but not 24/7. ~300cHP is pretty much safe but needs fuel mods. ~250cHP is safe all stock (fuel system included).

I've heard that changing the stock cams nets a lot of mid range power but couldn't say. I would say that to really see the full effect of new cams, you need to raise the rev limiter which probably means you need to swap out the stock ECU and you should also consider swapping out the miles and miles of intake runner for something a little more conservative.

The 5VZ intake runners, headers, exhaust, and came profile is designed 100% for low end power, but the internal dimensions are more bias towards high rpms so the 5VZ is kind of a weird engine

 

So around 340 rwhp max? That's not unreasonable. I want to believe I'm pushing about 220 now on s/c, 2.2 pulley and 7th injector so that would be a nice upgrade but I can't help but fantasize about that 3rz. Looks like I'd be looking at similar costs for either set up, the biggest difference would be the higher ceiling on the 3rz which I could keep adding to as I please.

I'm leaning more towards the 3rz over the 2rz since this would be a 4x4 build so I wouldn't have to worry about either an engine swap or a 4wd conversion and also I'd have much higher torque numbers to spin some heavy ass tires.

On the other hand, ultimately it seems the 3rz will be the more expensive and more involved build so perhaps I should attempt a 5vz turbo build first to sort of get it out of my system and use it as a learning experience.

Seems like everytime I visit this site for answers I leave with even more questions!

 

And a smaller bank account!!

 

Lol, yeah it's all just theory craft at this point. This is a 5 year plan

 

@MadTaco461

@mjbtaco

 

One day when i get my chassis fixed up, i will have dyno numbers on cams for a 5vz. I'm running Colt Cams 262 stage 2 re-grinds (formerly sea2skytuning stage 2 cams). They have a mild or near stock idle.

 

Would love to see them. I've heard so many mixed things about those cams I don't know what's real anymore.

Found a 3rz build on CT. Guy was able to get an estimated 300 rwhp from just a turbo kit and fuel mods. Think he was maxing at 12 pounds.

Most of the 2rz builds there are full blown drag trucks. Pistons, rods, cams and like 15 pounds minimum. Not sure I'm ready to go there but I do see what you're saying about the 2rz being the better choice @StAndrew .

Something about a 5vz turbo just scares me. I "feel" like it's a lot more involved than a 2/3rz. But from what I am reading it looks like I can get over 300 rwhp for around $3000 and a relatively mild setup.

 

2-3rz is about 300 where they max out with a piggyback. You'd need a standalone for 400 so you can raise your rev limiter and upgrade valves and springs. About 3-4k is the cost to make a 300hp on the rz and 5-6 for 400hp. Might be able to make 400 with meth and e85 without a standalone.

 

Not really. You should be able to make plenty of power on a piggy back; standalone will make it easier for sure though. The first weak link on the 2rz/3rz are the head studs so those need to be replaced first. Cams are a good second. If you want to see a 3RZ being built, @45acp is building a "race truck" but estimated completion is anyone's guess.

 

I read through his build recently, pretty exciting stuff. Looks like he ran out of dollars though hah. He's definitely doing it right. If and when I ever attempt a 2/3rz build I'm definitely going to be following his example.

 

Maybe I should say 400hp is pretty tough to do without raising the rev limter. That where standalone and upgraded valves come into play. 5850rpm is a pretty low rev limit.