97 4Runner Crawler

The d-ring bushing needs to be rubber. You'll blow the shit out of that polly in about 2 miles. Polly's fine for the other two.

 

Did well at jamboree. Thought I would have a shot at the rock garden race for the 35s class till I saw the 4600 car that just won rush pull up. He ran it in 21 seconds and the unlimited class was a bentfab buggy on 42 reds that only beat him by 2 seconds. At least a 5th gen trying to beat my time messed up his fiberglass fenders rubbing and came down hard on the rear bumper and smashed it into the taillights and quarter panels.

Only pulled cable up a double ledge when I backed up and got tippy, but it pulled it fine and had no wiring problems with music cranking while just idling. Ran a 2/0 ground to the body and grounded the winch directly to the body as well to avoid bottle necking between the bus bar and where it is grounded. Still thinking of grounding straight to a stud on the frame but idk where to pass the 2/0 through the tub in the back.

pretty happy with the bead grips. I gooped them up with aerospace gasket maker before I aired them up and that shit is nasty but they ran no problems at 9psi both weekends. Ill lower the pressure down some more and keep testing them in the rocks as I go.

 

ordered another set of rear springs to try out to lower it. RE 4.5 XJ springs should be 164lb/in and 21 ish free length. If they do work I'm sure body lean would be even worse so I'm starting on some sway bar math that I want to keep track of in here. longer free length springs will hopefully help me not loose as much droop when flexing but I will probably need limit straps to keep the rear shocks happy if I am going fast.

Started out thinking I would DIY one with old junkyard torsion bars but I'm leaning to buying a tk1 or maybe another kit now. it would also be neat if I had the ability to adjust from a softer setting off-road to a stiffer setting when i will not be flexing it all the way out (on the road)

outside of frame ~42" = 45" bar ideally

I need to figure out the shear stress of whatever their spring steel is to be sure I'm not snapping bars. Also need to figure out if i want to try and split travel 50/50 front and back or still let the back flex out faster than the front. I have no idea which would be more desirable but I am leaning to setting up the rear to flex a bit more

currently the front flexes around 4" for 12" of rear flex, calculations try to account to swapping for lighter springs as well.
with a 45" tk1 rock racer and 16" arms my sloppy calculations say the front would flex about 10.5" when the rear flexes 12". it will put around 1124lbs on the arms flexed out and shear in the bar would be around 91kpsi
18" arms the front would flex about 9" when the rear flexes 12". It will put around 888lbs on the arms flexed out and shear in the bar would be around 81kpsi

I'm thinking 18" arms would be the best for me to try and keep the sway bar from limiting my max droop on one side when flexed out and to keep the shear stress a bit lower in the bar. It should also limit body sway by around 30%. 81kpsi of shear still seems high to me but I am sure there are people with some combination of more flex with a shorter bar and shorter arms and without issue.

orrr I did find some 20" 400s or even 22" 350s to make it flex and be even more terrifying on turns and side hills haha

 

Tony at tk1 recommended either a crawler or u4 bar that are tapered from 1 to .75 or 1.25 to 1 since the straight 1" racer deforms at the splines with higher flex.
Crawler 12" arms - 65lb/in 951lb force @12" of arm deflection
Crawler 14" arms - 48lb/in 661lb force @12" of arm deflection
u4 with 20" arms - 73lb/in 929 lb force @12" of arm deflection

For comparison
from what I can find stock rear sway bar is around 38lb/in
Currie 50" universal that is used in the allpro FJ kit comes with 21 or 18" arms so 52 or 71lb/in

leaning to the longer arms on a stiffer bar so the rate is more consistent through flex vs it pushing at hard angles on a short bar when it is flexed out causing stiffer rates near the end of travel.

Need to get measurements with the other springs for the rear tomorrow.

I am also starting on some math to try to use a dual rate spring up front. Could help with both flex and body lean and I want to make any changes before tuning shocks but it is super tight to be able to get a halfway decent ride height.

https://www.shimrestackor.com/
https://restackor.com/sample-apps
https://www.pirate4x4.com/threads/t...yno-data-which-shocks-should-you-buy.2130786/
https://www.pirate4x4.com/threads/shock-valve-shims.1115042/
https://www.pirate4x4.com/threads/the-spring-tech-thread.1074029/page-8
https://racetech.com/page/title/IP SK VALVING ADAPT
shim stiffness
http://www.billavista.com/Tech/Articles/Coilover_Bible_Part_1/index.html
http://www.billavista.com/Tech/Articles/Coilover_Bible_Part_2/index.html

http://www.racingsuspensionproducts.com/shim/shim.html
https://slavensracing.com/shop/shock-valving-shims/
https://www.teknikmotorsport.com/16mm-id-suspension-shim-kit
https://www.suspensiondirect.com/shop/shim-parts

https://www.peterverdone.com/wiki/index.php?title=Suspension_Fluid
King is Shell Tellus T22 - now Shell S2 VX 22
Fox is F&L Ultra Extreme

 

Xj Springs were shit it sat wayy too tall. I’ll probably stick with the 861s I’ve wasted too much time trying other shit.

I’ve been putting off everything on it off till last night when I rebuilt the tie rods again. I’ve bent outers 4x now with the most recent ones playing around crawling on a loading dock then jumping it. Also turned down the inner misalignment spacers so I won’t get close to maxing out the angle on them. They are also left and right hand thread so way nicer to adjust.

Have some valve shims in my cart to retune the front then rebuild the rear at the same time. Waiting to pull these locked offroad bump stops after wheeling this weekend to figure out what size shims are in them. I’m pretty disappointed in them as I’m blowing through them on g outs or jumps even with 300psi and they told me the max is 350. Plan is to put some stiff valving in them. Shorten to 1-1.5” ish stroke and run high pressure and hopefully that will help the ride along with coilover changes.

the front also still rubs both sides when I jump it which is crazy with how much I cut at least on driver side. I can clear a 37 at full bump but apparently everything flexes a lot more.

https://youtu.be/xiM_1zPx5gE

 

I bet the guy that sold it to you used those because he also tried every other fucking spring before settling on those 861's. lol

 

Broke an intermediate shaft stub again first pic shows where it broke. On rear diff without traction to rear. Passenger front fell off the rock and snapped when it hit the ground. Didn’t bring my full spare so I drove home, swapped it and drive back to keep wheeling.

I’m really just being too careless I think. Rest of the day I didn’t lock it much and I’m trying to let the ego go and back up for a better line when needed to keep that passenger front out of a bind.

 

At least it was a clean break and much easier to swap than the ADD tube setup.

 

keeping track of valving shit

front 2.5 x 8 king 18" 500lb spring

3x .098 bleed

king oil

Starting point:

.012 1.75
.012 1.60
.012 1.45
.012 1.30
.012 1.15
.012 1.00
=====
.012 1.75
.012 1.60
.008 1.0 flutter
.020 1.45
.020 1.30
.020 1.15
.020 1.00

150 psi

_________________________

changing to:
maxima 3wt shock oil
.015 1.00
.015 1.15
.015 1.30
.012 1.45
.012 1.60
.012 1.75
=====
.012 1.75
.006 1.10 bleed
.015 1.75
.020 1.60
.020 1.45
.020 1.30
.020 1.15
.020 1.00

plan 150 psi

Another change to:

1 bleed hole open, 2 plugged

maxima 3wt shock oil
.015 1.00
.015 1.15
.015 1.30
.015 1.45
.015 1.60
.015 1.75
=====
.012 1.75
.006 1.10 bleed
.015 1.75
.020 1.60
.020 1.45
.020 1.30
.020 1.15
.020 1.00
_________________________
_________________________

front 2.0x2" locked bump

fox? oil

Starting point:
mm thickness mm diameter
5.05 24 spacer
0.30 22
0.30 28
0.30 32
0.30 32
0.30 34
0.30 34
0.30 34
0.30 36
0.30 36
0.30 36
0.30 36
0.20 36
0.30 31
=====
0.20 36
0.30 38
0.30 38
0.30 38
0.30 38
0.30 34
0.30 34
0.30 34
0.30 32
0.30 32
0.30 28
0.30 24
0.30 22
2.9464 37 rate plate

300 psi

_________________________

End point:

shortened to ~1.2"

maxima 10wt fork oil filled to within 5ml of hydrolock

mm thickness mm diameter
5.05 24 spacer
0.30 22
0.30 28
0.30 32
0.30 32
0.30 34
0.30 34
0.30 36
0.30 36
0.20 36
0.30 31
=====
0.30 38
0.30 38
0.30 38
0.30 38
0.30 36
0.30 36
0.20 36
0.30 34
0.30 34
0.30 34
0.30 34
0.30 32
0.30 32
0.30 28
0.30 24
0.30 22
2.9464 37 rate plate

300psi

____________________
____________________

rear 2.5 x 10.5 ish king oem series

1x .098 bleed

king oil

Starting point:

.012
.012
.012
.012
.010
.010
=====
.012
.012
.008 flutter
.020
.020
.020
.020
.020

150 psi

___________________

End Point

1x .098 bleed

F&L Ultra Extreme oil

.012 1.00
.012 1.15
.012 1.30
.012 1.45
.010 1.60
.010 1.75
=====
.012 1.75
.010 1.10 flutter
.015 1.60
.020 1.45
.020 1.30
.020 1.15
.020 1.00

150 psi

 

Another one broke this weekend. Getting tired of this stupid shit.

Less than 100 miles by me on this one too. Half a wheeling trip late June then it sat while I rebuilt and revalved shocks. Got it back together yesterday morning and did one easy trail, took poser pics on a rock pile, then went to play on a rock garden. I’ve done it a dozen times but just dropped two tires in holes, locked the front and tried to crawl and it snapped.

kinda wonder if the add is stronger somehow even though the math wouldn’t make sense. The splines do look a lot cleaner.

Suspension felt good but didn’t get the chance to test it much. Biggest difference is the bump stops actually do something now they were terrible before and just blew through travel and had a harsh bottom out. It is a little stiffer going through 6” chop at speed but nothing too bad. Still nice on road but it doesn’t bounce as badz

also one headlight was hanging on by a thread so I just ripped it out. Don’t know how I don’t see this problem more but those heavy ass glass things suck.

 

Dang so you are snapping the manual tube intermediate shafts?

 

Yep thats the second. Just bound up in rocks crawling.

Only have one more until my stash is out. It is a brand new oem shaft so maybe it will be a touch stronger but I doubt it.

As I see it a few of my options are -

cryo treat the shaft before putting it in

- turns out this option will not work but I'm leaving it in hopes of saving someone elses time, shaft 27 spline and outer 27 spline is different from inner 27 spline at the diff - Buy a 4340 extended CV shaft for a long travel kit, cut and weld it to a stock outer internal spline section from one of my trashed shaft, then send it off for heat treat. Problem is will be welding together 4340 for the shaft, probably a 4130 tube to sleeve and plug weld to both sides, the stock shaft is likely either 1541 or 1055 and whatever welding wire. I don't know how they all heat treat and if I can get in a good hardness range for all of them heat treating at the same time. Maybe just stay away from the internal spline section and the spline section that will go in the diff and weld slow with wet rags to leave the heat treat as is on the important ends. Then just run it till it breaks.

8" clamshell front with +2 extended axle shafts is pretty close to the right width - I'm 67.75 and it should be 68.5 - 69 ish which seems like a bigger difference now that I am typing it out. I wouldn't expect the fab work to be too bad on this since the diffs are both steel case and not that difference in size.

27 spline 7.5" diff side stuff is ~1.1" major diameter and ~1.0 minor, and from what I can gather the 8" solid axle 30 spline stuff is the same as the IFS 30 spline, which is ~1.28" major and I would guess ~1.18 minor. This means the stub shaft is somewhere between ~57 and 64% stronger from what I can tell.

A tundra 9" would be 1.41" major and 1.31 minor which is ~110 to 124% stronger than the 7.5, and ~ 33 to 36% stronger than the 8".

all these values again are just the shaft size at the diff. I do not recall seeing guys break this shaft on an 8" clamshell with 35s. I think I do remember seeing tundra guys break this on 38s or 39s. I think an 8" could hold up reasonably well with 35s but that would require a ton of other custom work with spindles, axles, possibly arm length etc. A tundra diff would require all that other than axles (stock will work with 3.5" kit), massive clearance issues, and I would need to shorten the passenger side tube.

In short maybe I should just buy f250 axles.

 

That front diff and the intermediate shaft is the biggest reason why I haven't jumped ship to 37s. I try and be as smart as I can with driving, as soon as I feel the truck gets bound up or bounce, I back out. If someone comes out with a bigger front diff or a retrofit kit for another diff that'll work, I'm game to throw bigger tires at a truck that doesn't need bigger tires.

 

Curious to see what you conclude.

It's been on my list to swap my ADD tube for a manual, but maybe I won't rush into that...

 

I’ve got getting a manual tube intermediate shaft getting cry treated on my short list for a while now.



Couple questions, do you have a crawl box (I assume yea and I can prob dig through but on my phone) and with it csn you usually feel if you are bound up before it’s snap city? Currently I don’t have one but with the 35’s and being a manual I can feel it fight me. It borderline stalls because of it. I wonder if no indication of binding might be the larger issue?

 

Only advantages of manual in my opinion now is it is easier to swap out and the break is cleaner.

It still has taken me punching them out from the other side of the diff both times with manual hub shafts just like the add. 3/16 extended reach punch from harbor freight is perfect to get it. Manual tube does give you a lot more room to unbolt the tube on the passenger side though.

If you arnt going to carry a spare with you to swap I say just keep it add. If it breaks I would put in outer and inner stubs on both sides and roll in 2wd.

Or carry a spare add stub and swap it. Basically the same amount of work and the part is smaller. Unless you crack the housing like I did the first time around.

Having the front driveshaft spinning full time is not doing anything to help crawl boxes seeping oil and vibrations on the highway for me I’m sure.

 

Yea I’m having a hard time understanding the whole “back up” thing apparently lmao

maybe I just throw the 37s I have sitting on in the hopes they ware too big to fall into holes and get bound up like the 35s haha

 

Ha! That's one way to solve the problem. In theory, a great idea. I'd be curious to see how it works in practice since I know a guy running LT on a 3rd gen on 37s and he blows up intermediate shafts and CV axles on a regular basis. He's not babying it either.

 

Yes a crawl box with 2.28

with the auto I can definitely feel it bind up and stop when I’m just idling along or barely on the throttle. I just want to think I can just crawl through it with a bit more throttle but if I get the rpm’s too high it just snaps it.

It would help You especially with a manual and probably me as well to figure out how the fuck spoonman wired in an idle up switch. Then if it won’t crawl at 1100 or whatever high setting is you know you have to back up and retry

 

I have pictures of the mtb gear shift thing to control the idle somewhere, gotta find it.