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Clutch advise - 6sp, 2012, supercharger

Discussion in '2nd Gen. Tacomas (2005-2015)' started by Bwthomas77, Oct 19, 2020.

  1. Oct 19, 2020 at 6:47 PM
    #1
    Bwthomas77

    Bwthomas77 [OP] Well-Known Member

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    Opinions on what to replace stock clutch with?

    Feels like my clutch is starting to slip, I'm at 73k miles on a 2012 supercharged tacoma with stock clutch.

    Main symptom I am having is that with faster acceleration the engine is revving but I'm not getting transmission of power to the ground and accelerating slowly. If I take it easy, no issues.

    I honestly don't know much about clutches or how they work other than sort of the basics of flywheel interfaces with a friction plate... I am not going to try to bite this one off and will be paying someone for labor, but would like to take the opportunity to upgrade it if there is a better option out there.

    I've looked at the URD combo deals, don't really understand what stage 2 vs 3 means. Also, I don't think I want to drop weight on my flywheel. I drive mostly on street, but want the ability to still crawl. Regardless they are out of stock at moment.

    Any suggestions on what clutch to go with would be appreciated, also recommendations if I should replace fly wheel.
     
  2. Oct 19, 2020 at 7:06 PM
    #2
    gearcruncher

    gearcruncher Well-Known Member

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    You wont know if you need a flywheel until the transmission is removed . I suggest sourcing a place where you could quickly purchase a flywheel just in case yours is beyond repair but In a normal clutch job , usually the flywheel is sent to a machine shop and placed on a milling machine to make the flywheel completely flat again .
    As the clutch disc wears into the flywheel , the flywheel gets dished . If you place a straight edge over the flywheel , you can see just how much dishing has occured over the years .
    You will not get warranty on a new clutch unless the flywheel is machined flat .
    Its very very easy to tell if the installer skips out on machining the flywheel
    Has the clutch been replaced before or is it factory original ?
    How is the slave cylinder ?
    Have you considered accumulator delete ?

    I will let others comment on the URD clutches . I have always replaced clutches with a new factory original clutch . In your case with the supercharger , it may be worthwhile to go with a stage 2 .
     
  3. Oct 19, 2020 at 7:14 PM
    #3
    Bwthomas77

    Bwthomas77 [OP] Well-Known Member

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    Thanks for reply, to answer questions:
    I believe slave is fine.
    Original clutch
    Had not considered accumulator delete

     
  4. Oct 19, 2020 at 7:28 PM
    #4
    gearcruncher

    gearcruncher Well-Known Member

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    I beleive members here are very happy when deleting the accumulator .Its a cheap mod that makes for a better feeling clutch .
    Considering the slave cylinder is 8 years old and the transmission must be removed to replace it , I would also have a new slave ready to go . It would really suck if you just paid for a clutch job and then the slave started leaking fluid . Then you have to pay to remove the transmission again . Such a horrible design !!
    Is your clutch fluid nice and clean or is it dirty and black ? Maybe a fresh clutch master cylinder as well ? At least verify there is a master cylinder in stock so you dont have to wait a week for parts
     
    Marc70 likes this.
  5. Oct 19, 2020 at 8:38 PM
    #5
    Jason J

    Jason J Well-Known Member

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    The slave cylinder is externally mounted and requires nothing to be removed but the heat shield.
     
    Marc70 and gearcruncher like this.
  6. Oct 19, 2020 at 8:40 PM
    #6
    gearcruncher

    gearcruncher Well-Known Member

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    You got me lol , its the dam clutch release bearing i was thinking about . You know how the quill wears out .
    There are sooo many of these posts , I get confused with Clutch masters internaql slave , the upgraded factoryexternal slave etc etc
     
    Last edited: Dec 16, 2020
  7. Oct 20, 2020 at 5:06 PM
    #7
    Bwthomas77

    Bwthomas77 [OP] Well-Known Member

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    Doesn't look like any more kits are being sold by Trident 904.

    Any suggestions on a kit for the delete? I'd be interested in getting rid of accumulator.

    Any other thoughts on URD clutch?
     
  8. Oct 20, 2020 at 5:15 PM
    #8
    Key-Rei

    Key-Rei Well-Known Member

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    I just got a double bubble flair connector from advance auto for a couple bucks and gently bent my lines to connect them, no problems or leaks after 3 years, just a much better clutch engagement and feel. Especially nice off-road.

    I believe this is the correct one.

    https://www.amazon.com/Bubble-Flare...le+bubble+flair+coupler&qid=1603239098&sr=8-1


    I have the URD stage 2 clutch kit with the heavy flywheel it's okay, feels a little heavier in the pedal but MUCH smoother with the stainless quil repair sleeve installed.

    I've got some posts/threads on the subjects if you search my posts. It might be in my horribly unorganized build thread.

    Just did my clutch itself about a year ago.
     
  9. Oct 22, 2020 at 6:51 PM
    #9
    Bwthomas77

    Bwthomas77 [OP] Well-Known Member

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    Thanks all. This is quite the rabbit hole you can go down reading about the 6sp.

    Clutch has some life still in it, will probably go after it in a couple months. Have a shop that will do the work.

    I have seen surprisingly little about the URD or the LCE performance is reviewing others postings.

    I think I will likely go with an AISIN clutch, get the flywheel resurfaced, and not drop a bunch of money into marginal performance upgrades. I do think I will get the Throwout Bearing UPGRADE/REPAIR KIT from URD.

    Otherwise, I also have the squeaky clutch. May get the TSB kit (on ebay for 350...) and have my shop install while everything is dropped. It looks like the big change for me with this would be the metal cylinder. I'm on the fence for this, seems like a lot of money for very little gain. Curious what others think.

    Thanks
     
  10. Oct 24, 2020 at 5:37 AM
    #10
    Bwthomas77

    Bwthomas77 [OP] Well-Known Member

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    Thanks for the advise. I am going to do the accumulator delete. Will probably do it after I get new clutch broken in...
     
  11. Oct 24, 2020 at 2:33 PM
    #11
    TacoTuesday1

    TacoTuesday1 Well-Known Member

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    I don't see how the URD bearing is an upgrade. It's just a bigger bearing. It probably still gets side loading to wear into the snout, unless their snout is stronger and can handle that.
    On other cars the snout is separately replaceable and recommended to change during a clutch job.

    the "latest and greatest" that came out after/more recently is the ClutchMasters Hydraulic TOB that uses brake fluid to actuate it straight on.
    The stock clutch I removed from my trans still had life at 7mm thickness (they're cheap) but my TOB lost lubrication and was squeaking. Common issue.
    I re-used my Aisin flywheel because they're said to be high quality but are expensive. I scuffed it with scotch-brite and checked flatness with a ruler. Didn't really have time to take it (nor a spare in my possession) to a machine shop to see if they can even grind it properly, let alone me figuring out if I must use any shims to compensate for thickness lost during machining.
    I simply scuffed it, eyeballed flatness, cleaned it, then slapped it back in.

    Only after an off road trip does my shifting feel worse now. Maybe banging through gears over rocks on 4lo messed something up. Maybe I need new synchros or have a bent shift fork or mushroomed shift collar (if the RA60F even uses shift collars)
    maybe it has clogged breathers and sucked in water degrading the MTF. Maybe I need to adjust the clutch pedal release point a bit.
    I don't know yet, so because of that I don't want to point fingers right away at any given part.
    Some things on this truck are strong. While others are more fragile than my old Audi B6 A4 that would take beatings all day.
    Only those B5 S4's with 2.7TT engine and 01E manual gearbox would mushroom their shift collar from people shifting too fast like it's a race.

    Engines need dampening. Flywheels are a part of that. Yours is solid and heavy. Some cars are non-solid/1-piece but a 2-piece DMF / Dual Mass, especially on common 4 cylinders where automakers skimp and put a cheapshit crank pulley up front that does nothing.
    That's why people get FluidAmprs to help lower usable RPM and make it smooth to not chatter.
    Unfortunately FluidAmpr does not want to make one for the Tacoma. I don't know why. Many people might buy it.
    They even make them for more obscure engines/vehicles where less people buy it.

    So if you get a light weight flywheel for faster spin-up/acceleration, you probably lose some dampening.
    On the opposite side, you can also get the URD heavy flywheel. It should add more dampening. Meaning it spins with more momentum at low RPM helping you off road/crawl better and not stall (manual).
    Will it be harder/slower to rev up and reduce mpg, or maybe increase mpg by having momentum while it spins cruising in 6th on the highway?
    I have no idea.
    Maybe heavier can even help start off in 1st gear pulling weight. Like armor, camper, etc.
    That added flywheel weight may not matter if the supercharger power makes up for it

    the clutch kit stages mean more clamping force to hold more power.
    It means the pressure plate that comes with it squeezes tighter. Which is normally harder to operate with your foot on the clutch pedal.
    But, if getting a ClutchMasters hydroTOB, the power of hydraulic fluid (brake fluid) is supposed to make it feel easier.
    So imagine you put a stiffer pressure plate (stage 2 or higher) and it gets harder, a HydroTOB may compensate for that by making it a little easier. Maybe to even feel normal, while still getting additional clamping force to hold/put power down

    so that your supercharger power does not spin/burn up the clutch
    Many people say a 2nd gen supercharger will easily kill a stock clutch
    when I pulled my clutch disc out, it was funny how small it was.
    I have seen on certain passenger cars where the clutch parts are big as shit.
    Meanwhile, in this 4L V6 (bigger than a car engine) heavy truck meant to off road, it had a small clutch.
    That also gives you more grab ability.
    I think Audi B6 A4 1.8T (2002-2005) 4 cylinder clutch was 228mm. Later on (and early in V6's) they offered 240mm, that could fit in the trans.
    You probably don't have that option on the Tacoma, of increasing diameter.
    Only type of friction material on the disc, clamping force on the pressure plate, etc.

    Also the HydroTOB eliminates accumulator.
    Don't get me wrong. I don't work for CM/ClutchMasters, and am not a salesman for them.
    I pray mine continues to work, unlike that one guy on the group buy who said his started leaking fast.
    I'm just trying to lay out info so you can make a choice.

    I think in the RA60F master guide thread, it's mentioned that they got better as the years went on. Mine being an 08 maybe was not one of those. I wouldn't mind one day rebuilding it (if I figure out how to) or replacing with newer. Or LS V8 swap and GM trans maybe.
    I can pull the trans out of the truck pretty quick and easy. But I have never rebuilt one internally (new synchros, etc.)

    forgot to add,
    I could have re-used my old 7mm clutch disc but put in a new one because I had it already and it's cheap. The clutch looked fine. Flywheel even looked new with machining lines on it so maybe it was driven well or replaced by previous owner.
    But the pressure plate forks where they engage with the TOB were bent so I for sure had to at least replace that/the PP.
    IDK the truck history; dealerships are not fond of giving out TSB info or service history on vehicles. And service advisors up front usually don't have access to TSB's anyway, just technicians/mechanics in the back on their computers with employee login info.

    It would really suck if you pulled the trans, put all new (stock) parts, only to find out they're not strong enough to handle the extra power of a supercharger that burns them up quick
    I hear another clutch test is to put it in 3rd at a stop, let out clutch pedal, and see if it stalls (good) or not.
    Some people might know they have "weak stock parts" and baby their throttle with a supercharger, but that seems like no fun.
     
    Last edited: Oct 24, 2020
  12. Oct 25, 2020 at 5:14 AM
    #12
    Bwthomas77

    Bwthomas77 [OP] Well-Known Member

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    Thanks for all the info!

    Well, I guess I should have done some more research. What I've ordered is the LCE pro clutch and the repair sleeve. I'm sticking with stock flywheel. I didn't really want to go lighter or heavier as >95% of my driving is on street (this is my daily driver)

    Since I was planning to delete accumulator, may just return sleeve and buy the hydraulic TOB. Is the group buy code still active?

    Thanks!


     
  13. Oct 25, 2020 at 8:33 AM
    #13
    Knute

    Knute Well-Known Member

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    Just a simple question.

    You're running a supercharger to increase Horsepower. Can the stock clutch handle the extra power? If not, then you'll be consuming clutches on a frequent basis.
     
  14. Oct 25, 2020 at 9:53 AM
    #14
    Bwthomas77

    Bwthomas77 [OP] Well-Known Member

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    Yeah, that’s why I ordered the lce with the pro comp, heavier plate.
     
  15. Oct 25, 2020 at 1:23 PM
    #15
    TacoTuesday1

    TacoTuesday1 Well-Known Member

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    It may or may not still be active
    I wonder if CM would allow you a one time discount
    given a sale is still a sale
    and they claim to have had record sales recently despite COVID; maybe they wouldn't mind 1 more item sold.
    Worth a try to ask; worst they can say is no.
    Unless there is enough people for another round of GB.

    I kind of regret not going stage 2 but can always try in the future.
    I just didn't want to spend a lot of money.
    A stock clutch kit (engine currently stock) was maybe $100 from RockAuto.
    Whereas Stage 2 kit would be like $500 parts alone.
    Would have been nice to have the stronger PP with more clamping force that I probably would've enjoyed for street driving and shifting performance, but still manageable pedal from the CM HydroTOB.
    But at $500 for clutch kit, $400 for TOB, etc.
    that was getting a bit uncomfortable from what I'm used to
    like $80 on a VW Jetta clutch where you slap it in and call it a day
    or a complete stronger/upgraded Audi kit for mild increased power is only like $300...
    Pretty expensive for a supposedly "cheap Toyota"
    I guess I could rationalize it as "well, the parts last long, the nice truck deserves it" or whatever
    but upgraded friction material and stronger clamping force might be more of a necessity for you with a supercharger
     
  16. Oct 25, 2020 at 2:49 PM
    #16
    Bwthomas77

    Bwthomas77 [OP] Well-Known Member

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    Definitely adds up quick. I'm paying someone for labor too... That said, this is a project a bit bigger than I want to take on, I'd probably go after it if I could leave the truck out of service for awhile or my wife did not care how much time I spent in the garage...

    I'm convinced on the TOB from clutchmaster. I think the LC engineering pro comp clutch kit will do for me what I need. Sticking with the oem fly wheel and just gonna have the shop machine it. I'm gonna have to return the URD sleeve (which I ordered from LC engineering and appears to be the exact same thing).

    Will see if they cut me any off for the TOB. Its nice that it will eliminate the accumulator. Hopefully will not have any leaking issues.
     
  17. Oct 26, 2020 at 11:08 AM
    #17
    Bwthomas77

    Bwthomas77 [OP] Well-Known Member

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    Well I pivoted here. I cancelled my order with LCE performance, which wasn't too bad as they were helpful on the phone and I only had to pay a 5% penalty, which was less than what all the shipping back and forth would have cost.

    I'm going to go with the clutchmaster TOB hydraulic and the URD stage 2. I'm going to get my flywheel machined. I plan to order after the money gets refunded from LCE. The stage 2 specs will exceed the hp and torque that the SC produces and the clutchmaster should resolve the design issues with the TOB, eliminate the accumulator, and make the more aggressive clutch still reasonably street friendly... at least that is the theoretical conclusion I've come to with the research I've done on all of this. I am going to pass with messing with the squeaky clutch - can't really justify the extra expense for a solution that may not resolve the annoying squeak.

    Thanks to everyone on the thread for their assistance. I'll follow-up on how it turns out, once I get it all done.
     
  18. Oct 28, 2020 at 11:19 AM
    #18
    Bwthomas77

    Bwthomas77 [OP] Well-Known Member

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    Well URD is sold out of stage 2

    I spoke to gadget at URD and said they should be back in around a month.

    Ordered the stage 3 and The clutchmasters hydraulic TOB is on the way. Will see how all this turns out.
     
    Last edited: Oct 28, 2020
  19. Oct 30, 2020 at 8:57 AM
    #19
    garciav

    garciav Well-Known Member

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    @BillDaCat8 didnt you have issues with the spacing on your clutchmaster bearing after you got your flywheel machined down ?
     
  20. Oct 30, 2020 at 12:52 PM
    #20
    BillDaCat8

    BillDaCat8 Well-Known Member

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    I got a Mickey Mouse antenna ball. Does that count?
    No. The issue was that Clutchmasters had given me the incorrect spec to have my flywheel step machined to. I had it cut to their spec (I’m using their clutch too) and it would barely disengage. Was a nightmare to drive. It eventually loosened up a bit so that it was somewhat driveable. I managed about 2k miles like that (mostly longer freeway trips) before this bearing started leaking the first time.

    Dropped the trans again. Re-machined the flywheel to the correct spec and replaced the fat o-ring in the bearing. At that point I shimmed the bearing with the thinnest shim in the kit since the flywheel had at this point been machined twice. It’s been better since then with the exception of the super inconsistent engagement point. Which has to be temp related. I tried switching to 5.1 fluid a couple weeks ago. It’s maybe a teensy bit better. But, still not good. During the fluid change, I found it leaking AGAIN.

    At this point, I’m done with this POS and Clutchmasters. When that trans comes out again, I’ll be going back to the OE release setup with the PDM sleeve like I had before. As well as a new flywheel and different clutch.
     

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