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Correct Wheel/Tire Balancing (LUG CENTRIC)

Discussion in 'Wheels & Tires' started by viprbomber, Jul 22, 2007.

  1. Jul 22, 2007 at 9:08 AM
    #1
    viprbomber

    viprbomber [OP] Active Member

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    Last year i did a RevTek 3" lift and went to 285/75R-16 BFG A/T's with MOTO 16X9 on a 05 Tacoma V6 Prerunner. Discount tire did all the work and i drove out of there pleased until i had the lift installed when i hit 35-55 miles per hour it would go into the "death wobble". I went back to the installer and found one mistake and they re-did the alignment. I was told by the 4X4 shop and the alignment shop that because it was lifted it would not go completely away. It did get minimal at the time, when i rotated at 5,000 it was back, so i repeated the steps above no change. Every rotation i have done since then i have asked for a balance check and it has always been off. This has gone on for 1 yr. so i contacted toyota, Revtek, and a different alignment shop. all have agreed it was wheels and tires. I was not aware that the 05 and above needed a lug centric balance NOT A HUB CENTRIC! this is what discount was doing. I went back this weekend and told them thats what was needed. the tech acted as if it would not change a thing, and it DID NOT, but i told them to put two new tires (at their cost) and balanced with the lugs correctly, it is as smooth as the day i bought it. He told me that he sees this with all lifted toyota's and i said because you need to do the proper balance!
    I will go through this again on the next rotation because we did not replace the rear tires yet, he is still not convinced the tires are now bad due to the year of improper balance and everyday use.
    the lesson here is to ensure your tire shops do the correct balance and watch them if you can!
     
  2. Jul 22, 2007 at 5:55 PM
    #2
    Panama Red

    Panama Red Well-Known Member

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    viprbomber:
    I hate to disappoint you, but Toyota trucks have been HUBCENTRIC since at least 1996. If you look at your wheel hub, you will see a ring that is exactly 106 mm diameter which is exactly the size of a factory Toyota wheel bore.

    Since you have aftermarket wheels, very, very few are specifically made for Toyotas and when they are made to fit on them, the aftermarket wheel hub is normally 108 mm diameter. That means that unless you have a hubcentric wheel ring to take up the 2 mm slack, you will ALWAYS run the risk that your aftermarket wheels are not centered on the wheel hub.

    Read this pdf. and you will see what I am taking about: http://www.prestigewheel.com/Catalog/HubRings66_67.pdf
     
  3. Jul 22, 2007 at 8:26 PM
    #3
    viprbomber

    viprbomber [OP] Active Member

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    This must be for 05 and up because the Toyota tech and the lead engineer from revtek explained it to me. Besides it worked!
     
  4. Jul 23, 2007 at 4:11 AM
    #4
    Panama Red

    Panama Red Well-Known Member

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    viprbomber:
    I again state that Toyota truck hubs/wheels have been HUBCENTRIC since at least 1996 (look at Figure 2 on attached pdf that is dated September 1996) and you will see where Toyota refers to their HUBCENTRIC wheels: http://www.ih8mud.com/tech/tsb/ToyotaLandCruiser/tsu00296.pdf

    Here is also an excerpt from a Hubcentric/lugcentric discussion that was held over on the ToyotaNation forum where a lot of false information on Tacoma hubcentric/lugcentric was put to bed:

    OK, here goes.

    The OEM wheels like virtually every OEM wheel since the late 90's by all manufacturers are, in fact, hub-centric. There is no need to argue/dusagree on the point. For any that are inclined to disagree, it is quite easy to remove a wheel and see for yourself. The flange on the Taco protrudes about 5/16" and the OD of this fits neatly inside the bore of the OEM wheel. If you heft a wheel up to its mounting position prior to installng any lug nuts, you can notice the wheel will turn on this center hub allowing you to line up the lug nuts. The hub centric design is a sustantial strength benefit under shear forces. In shear, these forces are transmitted through the center, presumably strongest part of the wheel and the lugs do not have to absorb these forces alone.

    Perhaps some confusion comes about because of the lug nut style of the Taco. The OEM nuts have a shank and washer. This is different than many cars that use a lug nut with a conical seat to secure the wheel to the vehicle.

    OK, so why are Taco wheels sometimes hard to balance?

    Let's look at balancers first. The most common method of balancing is to throw the wheel up on a balancer and use a cone to center the wheel. The cone goe through the center bore of the wheel. Hopefully everyone realizes the difference between a cone and a cylinder. With a cone, thee is only a circular line of contact bewtween the cone nd the wheel hub. (In contrast to the wheel as it sits on the cylindrical-shaped flange where there is a theoretical contact area of about 5/16" of depth.) Back to the balancer... Depending on the shape of the balancing cone being used and the diameter and edge shape of the wheel centerbore, the cone's contact edge may or MAY NOT be good. In some cases, it may not even come into contact with a machined edge of the wheel bore. In short, some wheel designs when combined with certain shaped balancing cones may be incompatie and you may not get a good balance. This can be easily demonstrated by removing and re-installing a just-balanced wheel to the balancing machine. If the cones do not fit properly to the wheel, the results will not be repeatable.

    Car manufacturers are keenly aware of this "issue". Many manufactures - Lexus was amoung the first, require their dealership to use a Haweka-style lug-centric balancing plate. These plates use lug "fingers" and secure the wheel to the balancer using the concentricity of the lugs. Done properly, the tire/rim should be rotated while the balancer's jam nut is being tightened.

    Now let's look at issues at the car itself.

    Purely from a balancing perspective and explicitly ignoring other design benefits, the best combination for balancing consistency is (in order)

    1. A hub-centric wheel with conical seat lug nuts. Both are simultanously centering the wheel on the car.

    2. A hub-centril wheel with the shank-style lug nuts. This is the Taco OEM set-up (for aluminum wheels). The hub centricity will center the wheel and the shank-style lugs aren't quite as effective as the conical seat nuts for centering.

    3. Non-hub-centric wheels with conical styly lugs. The lugs themselves must both secure and center the wheel.

    4. Finally, the least desireable config is the non-hub-centric wheel with the shank-style lug nuts. In this config the shank-style lug nuts have to both secure and center the wheel... and there is too much room for error.

    Being frustrated by too many bad balancing jobs, I broke down and bought my own balancer and Haweka adapter system. Consequently, I have had a lot of time to experiment.... and I also found that I have a lot more friends than I thought I had

    Quote:
    The facts I know for sure are that manufactures do make HUB-centric and LUG -centric Rims.

    Maybe so - but I have not seen an OEM rim that wasn't hub-centic in the last 10 years or so. If you know of one, I'd sure like to hear what it is. You can consider that a challenge if you wish. I don't mind losing and learning something in the process.
    Quote:
    If like what you were concluding my Lug-centric is actually Hub-centric?

    I hope that you, like some others in this thread, are not confusing the definition. ALL rims, regardless of bolt pattern, number of lugs, etc. have the lug pattern concentric with the precise center of the rim. A hub-centric rim is one that has a center bore that precisely fits over a flange on the vehicle. Like I said, I have not seen a rim steel or aluminum in the last 10-years that did not have this kind of fitment - called hub-centric.

    The lower cost, most common, aftermarket manufacturers typically do not make hub-centric wheels. By manufacturing a hub-centric wheel, the wheel becomes specialized to one particular application or a small set of applications that share the same bore diameter. Having dealt with many,many wheel/tire modifications in both street and track applications, I personally would never purchase wheels that were not hub-centric. This is the primary reason I chose the TRD/BBS wheel for the Taco.

    keezer36 - that is a good and accurate pdf link that you posted - showing that only a very minute out of round variation can cause a perceptible imbalance condition.
    Quote:
    I also know that you can balance a well made Lug-centric rim with the cone system. The Haweka system is NOT needed. Mine balanced out fine.

    Yes, it is very possible to balance a rim with the cone system. With the right tapered cone in contack with nice machined surface of th center bore, then the balancers work as they were designed. Please note, however, that there are rim and cone combinations that just won't alow a consistent balance. A Haweka type of lug-centric balancing system will mitigate these incompatibilities.

    To summarize - a rim is either hub-centric or it is not. Period. Some define a wheel that is not hub-centric as being lug centric. This is a common practice and perhaps de-facto definition. Literally, however, all rims are lug-centric.
     
  5. Jul 23, 2007 at 4:41 AM
    #5
    007Tacoma

    007Tacoma I dub thee malicious!

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    ...and now for a TON of really good information! :thumbsup:

    Now I feel much better about getting my tires balanced at the dealership - $50 for lifetime balancing! ;)

    Panama_Red, do you have any more info on the BBS/TRD rims?
     
  6. Jul 23, 2007 at 5:13 AM
    #6
    Panama Red

    Panama Red Well-Known Member

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    007Tacoma:
    There are currently two BBS Toyota specific hubcentric wheels (106 mm center bore) that can be purchased through your Toyota dealers. Here is the 18" Toyota 8 spoke BBS version: http://trdparts4u.com/MC-CEII-EHA.aspx

    The 17" hubcentric version that I have on my Taco, I can not find for sale yet on the internet (they are the new six spoke Toyota BBS FJ Cruiser 17" wheels), I purchased them from my local Toyota dealer.

    There is also a 18" hubcentric Enkei Toyota six spoke wheel that can be purchased through Toyota.
     
  7. Jul 23, 2007 at 6:59 AM
    #7
    viprbomber

    viprbomber [OP] Active Member

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    Ok Panama,
    You obviously can afford to have your own machine and that is cool, but i don't know if my "rims" are either. All i know is the balance was done with the lug adapter, and it works and drives as good as the day i bought the vehicle. I do appreciate the time you have spent trying get something accross that a design engineer and a 25 yr toyota tech might disagree with you on, but once again it worked. I will however pass your info along to these two guy's and get their input. I will respond to it again right wrong and or in agreement.

    thanks,
    bomber
     
  8. Aug 1, 2007 at 7:37 PM
    #8
    eDubs

    eDubs Member

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    Ive got a 98 taco sr5 i just bought and have been having the hardest time getting the new tires balanced on these aftermarket rims. The guy at the shop said they arent meant to fit my hub because the diameter is too big, so he tried to center it and tighten the lug nuts which took 95% of the shake out of it but it still shakes a little. When i look at the rim it appears the bore is larger than the stock hub ring... as you guys mentioned above...

    I tried reading all the useful info above but my brain couldnt absorb all the info...

    what are my options for getting these POSs balanced???? buy hub rings it sounds like... Im trying to do it the cheapest way possible. what size do i need?
     
  9. Aug 2, 2007 at 2:03 AM
    #9
    Panama Red

    Panama Red Well-Known Member

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    eDubs:
    Here is one place that sells the hubcentric rings. They list two types that reduce the wheel hub from 108 mm (most aftermarket wheel manufacture's large bore size) to the Toyota standard truck 106 mm hub collar. One is plastic ($54) and one is aluminum ($68). From what I have read, the plastic is polycarbinate so it is suppose to be very durable and cheaper. The only problem is they are in Canada, so it takes about a week to get them through the mail.
    http://www.1010tires.com/hubrings.asp?gclid=CImskrKxhI0CFSNFgQodiXPuiA

    If you can find the 108 mm to 106 mm hubcentric rings locally at a custom wheel shop or through another vender that's fine, but the whole point is to reduce the wheel bore so it exactly matches the Toyota standard 106 mm hub collar and thus makes your wheel centered on the truck hub.

    Good luck.
     
  10. Aug 2, 2007 at 5:53 AM
    #10
    scutch10

    scutch10 Well-Known Member

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    I worked at Discount Tire for 3 years before joining the military, and we would have people come in with the same problem all the time. Most of the time, the lug centric adapter for the balancer didn't come up with a noticable difference, however, the Road Force balancer was incredible. I don't know if you have tried this but it balances the tire while putting a load (weight) on it. It costs a little extra, but definetly worth it if you ask me. Another thing you could try is balancing the tires while they are on the truck. Only a few places do this now-a-days but I have heard that it could help if all else fails.
     
  11. Aug 2, 2007 at 6:25 AM
    #11
    Panama Red

    Panama Red Well-Known Member

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    scutch10:
    A question about the Road Force balancer ???

    If I understand you correctly, the Road Force balancer machine properly balances the wheel/tire combination (which is a good thing). The question is how does balancing the wheel/tire combination fix the problem of when you pull the balanced wheel/tire combination off the Road Force machine and install it onto the truck and your wheel is not centered on the truck hub ???

    The hubcentric rings fixes the problem of the wheel not being centered on the truck hub, it does not solve a problem of your wheel/tire combo being out of balance (two different problem and with two different solutions).

    You statement of balancing the wheel/tire combo on the truck would solve both problems since you are then balancing the total "wheel/tire/hub" package, but the moment you changed a wheel/tire, you are back to the hubcentric problem again, unless you go back to the total balance machine every time (so you had better not get a flat out of town or any distance from that "on truck" balancing machine).
     
  12. Aug 2, 2007 at 6:47 AM
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    scutch10

    scutch10 Well-Known Member

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    While I was employed at Discount, I think I only ran into the hubcentric problem once, and that was on a Honda or something (can't really remember, that was about 8 years ago). The whole time I was there, we didn't put any rings on Toyotas and we never got any complaints. If there was any complaint about vibrations, we Road Forced and life was good. If the tire/wheel assembly is installed correctly, there shouldn't be any issue with hubcentric rings.
     
  13. Aug 2, 2007 at 7:02 AM
    #13
    nd

    nd Radical Town. It's a hell of a place!

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    Panama Red, my brain cannot comprehend most of what you are saying, but i have to say your imput is VERY much appreciated. I think i get the gist of the problem, but i'm not really sure why it matters if it is hub or lugcentric, but when it comes down to buying wheels, i'll have car person read this post and help me shop. Anyway, thanks again for the effort you put into your posts, its very much appreciated by the less educated, such as myself. Keep on schoolin' us :)
     
  14. Aug 2, 2007 at 7:02 AM
    #14
    Panama Red

    Panama Red Well-Known Member

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    scutch10:
    Unfortunately there have been a number of people who thought that balancing their wheel/tire combo would solve their vibration problems (and they some of them used the Road Force balancers too) and it didn't.

    This is why I am letting people know about the hubcentric rings. A lot of vehicle communities are aparently ignorant about this solution (hubcentric rings) versus others like the Miata community (I own two Miatas) that are well aware of the solution and have been preaching for 17 years to anybody who has purchased an aftermarket wheel.
     
  15. Aug 2, 2007 at 7:09 AM
    #15
    Panama Red

    Panama Red Well-Known Member

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  16. Aug 2, 2007 at 8:02 AM
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    eDubs

    eDubs Member

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    I tried to measure the bore diameter fo the rim and the inner diameter of the hub ring. I get (with a tape measure which isnt accurate) 3.125" for the wheel bore diameter and 2.5" for the hub ring... that's not even close to 106 or 108mm's.
     
  17. Aug 2, 2007 at 8:13 AM
    #17
    Panama Red

    Panama Red Well-Known Member

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    eDubs:
    It sounds like Toyota had a different hub coller size standard back on your truck than the newer 106 mm truck size. If you measure your wheel bore and hub coller accurately (use a micromiter), you should be able to pick the correct hubcentric rings that will exactly fit your truck. As you can tell when going to this site, there are a lot of ring sizes that are close you what you might need, so you need to accurately measure to be sure just exactly which one will fit your application. http://www.1010tires.com/hubrings.asp?gclid=CImskrKxhI0CFSNFgQodiXPuiA
     
  18. Aug 2, 2007 at 9:21 AM
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    eDubs

    eDubs Member

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    I dont have a micrometer but I'm sure I could buy one. Maybe they have one at the tire shop like discount tires?
     
  19. Aug 2, 2007 at 9:23 AM
    #19
    Panama Red

    Panama Red Well-Known Member

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    Yes or any good mechanic will have one since they need it when measuring brakes, engine parts, etc.
     
  20. Aug 7, 2007 at 2:40 PM
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    FlacoTaco07

    FlacoTaco07 Member

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    This just answered my question I have been pondering all week....



    Do I want aftermarket rims? And the headache possibly?




    NO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
     
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