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Dealer Negotiations - 6spd trans. replacement

Discussion in '2nd Gen. Tacomas (2005-2015)' started by ajwhlr04, May 17, 2012.

  1. May 17, 2012 at 7:30 PM
    #1
    ajwhlr04

    ajwhlr04 [OP] Well-Known Member

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    Sorry for the long post. There's a lot of background info to this story. I'm looking for some replies before tomorrow morning.

    About a year ago I bought a certified pre-owned 2007 Tacoma 4x4 6spd with 41xxx miles (now has 53xxx miles). It's still under the 60k 5yr warranty. I also purchased the extended warranty - 7yr 100k miles. I few months ago, I start hearing a bearing growl coming from the clutch/ transmission. The growl goes away when the clutch pedal is pressed, and also gets VERY faint after it warms up. I thought I was starting to hear the T.O. bearing issue and the dealer gave me that TSB free of charge. Sweet right? Yes and No, it still makes the noise. Must be the transmission...

    Apparently a Tacoma can't be flat towed - I found out after reading through the manual after I purchased it. It was sold to me with a front tow bar (for flat towing behind an RV). The previous owner must have flat towed it, but I have not...great.

    I'm looking for some good advice on how to deal with negotiating with the dealer to get this covered free of charge. I shouldn't have to pay for their mistake - actually the salesman tried to use the front tow bar as a selling point.

    Tomorrow I have an appointment to meet with the factory rep (engineer??) to diagnose the problem. This was suggested by the service manager (who also personally confirmed the noise) - they basically want to try to get Toyota to pay for it, instead of the dealer paying for it. I've gotten some advice from guys at work. So far they think that when Toyota rejects the repair (because the tow bar is installed), to tell the dealer they need to buy back the truck...then when that gets rejected work down to replacing the transmission free of charge. My coworkers also suggested getting some sort of warranty on the front and rear diffs, and other related drive train parts.

    Question 1: What can get damaged if flat towed? Only the shafts in the tranny, or other parts too? This is for my personal knowledge.

    Question 2: What is your suggestion in negotiating with the dealer on this? My goal is to get the transmission replaced, since it probably has premature wear.

    Thanks, and sorry for the long post.
    Aaron
     
  2. May 17, 2012 at 9:01 PM
    #2
    Monkeyboy

    Monkeyboy Well-Known Member

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    So far as I know, it is OK to flat tow a manual transmission. The autos suffer damage because oil doesn't circulate, but that isn't a problem for the manuals. In any event, you can flat tow it if you disconnect the drive-shaft (or install an oil pump for an auto).

    The larger point being that you cannot definitively prove that the damage - if it exists - derives from previous treatment. Even if you could prove it, the liability of the dealership for it would be limited in any event.


    That being said, I would expect the repair - or some portion of it anyway - to be covered by the warranty. You're a good customer and they want to throw you a bone.

    I'm betting you have a failing bearing somewhere in the engine, but that's a WAG from a random dude on the internet.

    Anyway, I've never gotten good legal advice from friends and co-workers. I have always had success by taking ownership and saying "this is the problem I have - please help me fix it."
     
  3. May 17, 2012 at 9:35 PM
    #3
    landphil

    landphil Wishin' I was Fishin'

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    The issue with flat towing a manual trans vehicle is basically the same as for an auto. In a manual, the only part turning when towing in neutral is the mainshaft, which sits above the oil level. After a while, residual lubrication just doesn't cut it. When the engine is running, it turns the input shaft and the countershaft, which sits below the oil level and provides splash lubrication to the whole transmission.

    As far as the diffs and the rest of the driveline, there is no cause for concern because of flat towing, as there is no lack of lubrication issues with them.

    And I'd agree they hung themselves putting a certified pre-owned tag on a taco with a tow bar. Dealer fail IMHO!
     
  4. May 18, 2012 at 8:15 AM
    #4
    ajwhlr04

    ajwhlr04 [OP] Well-Known Member

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    I think that it is a bearing on the main shaft in the tranny, which is what the service manager told me. That makes sense because when I press in the clutch (in Neutral), the main shaft stops turning (I think), making the noise stop. Good, it sounds like he was telling me the whole story.

    I still have the ad from when they sold me the truck...nice frontal shot showing that the tow bar was installed. At least I can prove it was there from day 1. Hopefully there won't be too much argueing, I'm not very good at it. I just get pissed off and can't very put words my together. :rolleyes:

    Thanks guys!
     
  5. May 18, 2012 at 8:47 AM
    #5
    Tacoma Mike

    Tacoma Mike 42 Year Toyota Master/ASE Master Tech.

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    This. Very well said.

    Hang on to that ad pic. But the warrantee you have Should take care of it with poss of a deductible only. Play it cool and let them go through their procedure.
     
  6. May 18, 2012 at 9:15 AM
    #6
    iroh

    iroh Well-Known Member

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    Part of that explanation I can't agree with. It would apply for a headset transmission but the 6 speed is a tailset design; this means the output shaft only has a single non-disconnectable gearset between it and the countershaft. If the vehicle is moving, the countershaft has to rotate.

    The question is whether the splash tray catches oil from a gearset with its hub on the mainshaft; otherwise the gearsets spinning on the mainshaft will go dry. (Also, if the engine is off and clutch engaged, the mainshaft is stationary regardless of manual transmission type; is physically connected so no exceptions.)

    Thus pic from tightdog1 on ttora, whose tranny blew up and he had to take it all apart:

    [​IMG]

    That yellowed piece of plastic next to 4th gear on the left of the pic is the mainshaft's splash tray. That gearset is fixed to the countershaft and has its hub on the mainshaft.

    Thus, the 6 speed doesn't lose lubrication when engine is off.
     
  7. May 18, 2012 at 9:23 AM
    #7
    iroh

    iroh Well-Known Member

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    Also, FWIW, my 6 speed has a fair amount of growl when idled in neutral. I even changed the fluid to be sure it didn't have the wrong stuff. It's especially loud in the garage. I believe it's the nature of the beast. Personally I believe some of it is gear clatter responding to the not-quite-smooth output from the engine. You can hear this really easily when in 2nd gear at about 1000 rpm with a little throttle - there's a loud GRRRRSH coming from the gearbox as the unused gearsets bounce back and forth on their teeth's faces.

    I've had a bearing near failure in an older vehicle's 5 speed and trust me, you'd KNOW it was going to have a problem. It sounded terrible.
     
  8. May 18, 2012 at 9:35 AM
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    ajwhlr04

    ajwhlr04 [OP] Well-Known Member

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    Is the grrrr always there regardless of engine temp? Mine gets very faint when warm. But it's freakin loud when I start it up in the morning, and it doesn't get that cold here in SoCal. It seems to have gotten worse over the past 6 months or so.

    It would be great to nail down whether or not the 6 spd can be flat towed. It sounds like there's a some disagreement between a couple members. So far, I'm convinced that there is something wrong - or starting to go wrong. I'm making every attempt to catch it early since I'm still under warranty.
     
  9. May 18, 2012 at 10:57 AM
    #9
    knucklehead

    knucklehead Well-Known Member

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    R, 1, 2 are fixed to input shaft. 3, 4, 6 are fixed to counter shaft. 5 is just straight connection input to output shaft. In neutral, counter shaft is turning, causing lubrication of all gears fixed to counter shaft. Turning 4th on counter shaft will splash oil into no1 oil receiver, which will lubricate R, 1, 2 bearings on counter shaft.

    One thing that most of the 1st gen owners get wrong, is that a 4x4 MUST not be flat or RW towed with the xfer case in neutral. The input shaft of the xfer case drives the oil pump, so it won't be lubricated in neutral.
     
  10. May 18, 2012 at 11:18 AM
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    knucklehead

    knucklehead Well-Known Member

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    I would like to point out that this does not hold for the 5 speed MT. On that transmission, the counter shaft is stationary when the input shaft is stationary, so only 5th gear will be lubricated. On that transmission, the only safe way to flat or RW tow without disconnecting the driveshaft, is to flood the transmission with oil up to the level of the output shaft.
     
  11. May 18, 2012 at 12:50 PM
    #11
    ajwhlr04

    ajwhlr04 [OP] Well-Known Member

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    Man, I'm mechanically inclined (a mechanical engineer actually :eek:) but this would be way easier to figure out if I had the thing sitting in front of me. Plus I'm not all that familiar with a 4x4 drive train/ tranny.

    Ok, lets do it this way. Assume it's 4x4, engine off, RV towing, tranny in N, 4x4 knob (not a lever) set to off.

    The wheels are connected to the axle, axle connected to drive shaft, drive shaft connected to...output/counter shaft????...keep the load path going, but include the lubrication process too.
     
  12. May 18, 2012 at 2:01 PM
    #12
    iroh

    iroh Well-Known Member

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    It's not terribly complicated.

    First the 4x4 part. That's all from the transfer case bolted onto the back of the transmission. The gear oils of the transmission and transfer case are totally separate.

    Driveshaft connects to transfer case, transfer case to transmission. No disconnect in 2nd gen transfer case, oil pump always runs, nothing much to worry about there as long as its in 2wd afaik.

    You have 53k miles. Are you on the factory tranny oil? If so, it would be thin enough by now to let all sorts of noise you won't like to happen. The stuff shears down. Aisin says fill for life.... sales pitch BS. If you haven't done so, change the fluid. It's only 1.9 qts of 75w90 to do it (MT90 if you like low shift effort).
     
  13. May 18, 2012 at 3:01 PM
    #13
    knucklehead

    knucklehead Well-Known Member

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    To add a little more detail to the inside of the transmission;

    Specifically to the RA60, does not apply to R15x....
    The input shaft is the long shaft at the front of the transmission, that begins at the clutch disk, runs through the front seal and bearing of the transmission, has fixed to it gears R, 1, and 2, then free spinning synchronized 3, 4, and 6 (not in that order from front to back). At the very back end of the input shaft is a synchronized sliding gear coupling that straight-attaches to the output shaft, we call this straight-through 1:1 "5th", and it is actually the strongest ratio available.

    The output shaft starts inline where the input shaft ends off and includes one BIG STRONG gear before getting to the bearing and seal where it leaves the transmission case. This big strong gear runs to the COUNTER SHAFT, which is a shaft that runs right beside the input and output shaft, parallel to them.

    In any ratio besides 5th, the input shaft drives the counter shaft, and the counter shaft drives the output shaft. The counter shaft carries gears matching each of the gears on the input shaft, but where a gear on the input shaft is fixed the matching gear on the counter shaft is free, and where free is fixed. The specific ratio is determined by whichever free gear on the input or counter shaft, is locked to that shaft. Only ONE free gear may be locked at a time, or the transmission will bind and obviously very bad stuff would happen.

    Now if every free gear is free (not locked), that condition is called "neutral". In neutral, the counter shaft remains tied to the output shaft.

    The transfer case differs slightly from the transmission in its type of gearing. Where the transmission uses a type of gears called PARALLEL HELICAL (basic parallel shaft type of gear, but angle cut to reduce noise), the transfer case uses EPICYCLIC.(also known as "planetary").

    The input shaft of the transfer case is attached to the SUN gear. The oil pump is driven off the PLANET CARRIER. The output shaft is either straight attached to the SUN gear (high range), or driven off the PLANET CARRIER (low range).

    So when flat or RW towing, starting with the driveshaft...
    The driveshaft turns the transfer case output shaft.
    The transfer case output shaft drives the transfer case sun gear and input shaft.
    The transfer case sun gear drives the planet carrier, which drives the oil pump.
    The transfer case input shaft drives the transmission output shaft.
    The transmission output shaft drives the counter shaft.
    The counter shaft splashes oil all around the transmission.
     
  14. May 18, 2012 at 3:42 PM
    #14
    maineah

    maineah Well-Known Member

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    I believe the 6 spd has an oil pump that lubes the main shaft driven from the end of the shaft it will spin as the wheels turn. Every single gear spins freely on the main shaft the shift hubs turn with the shaft they are what lock the gears to the main shaft. There is a small bearing inside the input shaft and the main shaft none of them get lubed unless it has a pump while flat towing it. If the noise goes away when you push in the clutch standing still it can only be one of two things counter shaft bearings (highly unlikely because they are below the oil level) or the input shaft bearing nothing else they are the only things that turn in neutral. If the drive gears are dry they will squeal like a pig.
     
  15. May 18, 2012 at 4:01 PM
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    knucklehead

    knucklehead Well-Known Member

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    You're pretty much wrong on all points. Please read above.

    Hope its ok to post this; from the FSM, MT RA60F:
    http://www.ncttora.com/fsm/05+/data/ileaf/06toyrm/06toypdf/06rmsrc/rm2006ta/03300410.pdf

    Input shaft:
    http://www.ncttora.com/fsm/05+/data/ileaf/06toyrm/06toypdf/06rmsrc/rm2006ta/03300510.pdf

    Output shaft:
    http://www.ncttora.com/fsm/05+/data/ileaf/06toyrm/06toypdf/06rmsrc/rm2006ta/03300610.pdf

    Counter shaft:
    http://www.ncttora.com/fsm/05+/data/ileaf/06toyrm/06toypdf/06rmsrc/rm2006ta/03300710.pdf

    As you can see, no oil pump.
    Fixed/free gears are distributed between both input and counter shaft.

    Input shaft ABSOLUTELY CANNOT turn in neutral unless the engine is running. Its tied to the engine through the clutch.
     
  16. May 18, 2012 at 4:11 PM
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    maineah

    maineah Well-Known Member

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    Thanks you beat me too it with better detail.
     
  17. May 18, 2012 at 4:19 PM
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    knucklehead

    knucklehead Well-Known Member

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    Well, except the part where your facts were a little off...
     
  18. May 18, 2012 at 4:33 PM
    #18
    ajwhlr04

    ajwhlr04 [OP] Well-Known Member

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    This is exactly what I was looking for in my last post, thanks. By this explanation, it says that all is well with flat towing the 4x4. Unfortunately, this conflicts with the user manual (says don't flat tow) and the service manager. Maybe toyota just doesn't want the liability. BUT....

    The service manager also said there is a bearing at the end of the main?? shaft that doesn't get lubed with engine off. Maybe it's not liability after all.

    The factory rep is looking at the truck now, who I was told I could speak with 3hrs ago. The inefficiency at the dealer is slowly killing me. I'll be talking to the manager about communications issues...a rant for another time.

    EDIT: I looked through my receipts from when I had the TO bearing TSB done...looks like they put an FJ clutch release cylinder in instead of the Tacoma cylinder. I had to compare the part #'s from the TSB to my receipt....OHHHH MR. MANAGERRRRR. Maybe that's what's causing the noise, but they're going to have to give a VERY detailed explanation as to why flat towing does or does not cause tranny issues.
     
  19. May 18, 2012 at 4:41 PM
    #19
    maineah

    maineah Well-Known Member

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    How many standard transmission have you rebuilt? When you pass your first one hundred let me know. The input shaft can not help but turn as soon as you release the clutch no matter if it's in neutral or in gear. There are no free gears on the counter shaft unless it's a dual counter shaft with shift hubs. The only correct point you bring out is if the engine is not running the counter shaft does not turn either. Even if it's a dual counter shaft the gears unless they are engaged turn freely on the counter shafts other wise it would lock up as soon as you select an other gear. The OP point was "the noise goes away when the clutch is disengaged in neutral" there for the correct answer is input shaft bearing because it is no longer spinning.
     
  20. May 18, 2012 at 4:51 PM
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    monkeyface

    monkeyface Douchebag, or just douche if we're friends

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    The owners manual says in no uncertain terms DO NOT "dinghy tow", i.e., all four wheels on the ground. I doubt it's a good idea with any vehicle. It would be ok with a RWD/4WD vehicle IF the rear drive shaft is disconnected, transfer case in 2WD, and front lockers free.

    As for getting the dealership to take care of it one way or another, that seems like a no-brainer, they have to take care of it. Just keep the pressure on them.
     
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