Everything You Always Wanted About Lower Ball Joint Bolts

when I replaced my ball joints last year, I used the black bolts but torqued them to 59 ft lbs. My question is can I re-torque these bolts to 37 ft lbs, or should I just replace them with new.

 

I'd replace them. Just get them ordered and replaced. They are so close or at their fail point now @59. I wasn't paying attention and torqued a couple to 59. One was fine the other snapped clean off trying to get to 59.

Just what I would do of course. Your call.

 

On the mining machines - looking for a way to avoid using Loctite - I have used Schnorr "safety washers". They are very hard, specially toothed, conical washers and I used the reduced torque, colloidal copper assembly paste for installation. This was suggested by some German gear engineers I met while building a dredge. It has proven to work - but the joints were designed with a much more conservative factor of safety than these ball joint fasteners. By example, this meaning the use of 5 or 6 screws instead of 4. These were 1.25 inch fasteners and I used the 12 pt "Ferry" type of screw to get the super high tensile strength of ASTM A-574 spec material (also used on metric 12.9). I haven't tried looking for a quality 12 pt M10 x 1.25 - but using them at a higher torque (clamp force) and Schnorr washers might be a useful solution.

I too appreciate the time and effort you've put into this - very worthwhile to gain some understanding of the problem. Many thanks!

 

I agree with @Area51Runner, just replace them. If they yielded (which they probably did at 59 ft-lbs), you really can't "un-yield" them, they are permanently compromised. In fact, loosening and retorquing is probably worse than just leaving them in place. Think of it as an overextended extension spring - it'll never be the same.

 

Thanks for the kind words, this really has been a labor of love and has consumed WAY more hours than I ever planned to invest - but we learned so much! So the kudos are truly appreciated.

I've seen the Schnorr washers before (never actually used them), good to have your feedback. In my many years in the aerospace industry, we always tried to avoid any locking features that relied on digging into surfaces, because they are all preload dependent (Nord-lock, Klincher-nut, etc). In other words, as long as there is preload, the locking features work well, but if preload is lost momentarily, there goes your locking feature. It's probably more of an issue for aerospace rather than mining (I'm guessing the loads are more severe and the safety margins are lower?). Not sure where offroading would fit in on this scale.

We always prefer positive locking features, something that gives you a prevailing torque that does not depend on preload and is measurable, so you know the locking feature is actually working while you're assembling the bolts (that's the problem with loctite and any of these serrated washers). So I think that locking bolts with a Nylok-type feature would be good - but I don't know if anyone makes M1-x1.25 bolts with plastic pellets or patches like that.

I've had a number of chats through my day job with Enduralock's founder Dr. Hess, who I think has one of the most creative locking features I've ever seen - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LDrvRtVzQbU&ab_channel=NASAiTech. I even pondered adopting his technology to the LBJ bolts - but the cost would be about $25 per bolt (if we order 10,000 or more), so that's a no go. Besides, for blind bolts (screws), we'd have to modify the ball joint flange, so that's also a no-go. Plus their website is not loading, so I don't knew if they are still around.

But that's that's the kind of locking feature I'd really like, something that is relatively bulletproof. I'll poke around at SEMA this week and see what I see.

 

[QUOTE="SpikerEng, post:[/QUOTE]

Wow and also thanks. That's a ton of useful and in some cases mind bending info... Many years at this point (hopefully) before i need then but i have already saved the part numbers for the black bolts (at 37 ft/lbs) , or the ARP bolts at 59 ft/lbs

You mentioned alternative locking solutions. Does anyone make similar bolts that have drilled heads for safety wire? Or would this just keep them from falling out and not prevent that loss of preload ?


I gather you should try to clean and remove any oil/grease that may find its way into the female threads so its a true dry torque setting?

 

Next time i guess I should read the first note completely. Failed to notice the "commonly used for the 3rd Gen 4Runner and early 1st Gen Tacoma trucks" reference..

Are any of those bolts used on the 2nd gen in my case a 2015 which from the looks of it only uses two per side ?

And with so many contributors to this forum I learn something new everyday.

What I didnt know was someone else posted

"First gens tacos / 3rd gen 4 runner / 1st gen tundra all had the same style of LBJ that was in tension (being pulled apart) by the weight of the vehicle and thus why old ones would catastrophically fail oftenish.

2nd / 3rd gen tacos / 4th n 5th gen 4 runner and latest tundra have a front suspension setup that opposite where the LBJ is in compression (ball being pushed into the cup) so failures wont be nearly as bad"

Is this also why 1st gens need 4 LBJ bolts and 2nd gen only need two?

 

Yeah, this is applicable only to 1st Gen Tacos, not later ones. So you're good .

Not sure why they went from 4 bolts to two. The tension vs compression may be part of it; but they also went to larger size bolts, so the overall strength capability is probably similar.

 

I have searched a lot but can't find any references to the actual bolts used on the 2nd gen. IS there only one version unlike the many shown for the 1st gen? Is it just common to reuse them them? The online toyota parts stores only show the LBJ mounting bracket and not the bolts.

Even if you can just point me at any existing thread about them... Thanks.

 

Your best bet for an immediate answer (without guesses) will be found in the 2nd gen forum.
https://www.tacomaworld.com/forums/2nd-gen-tacomas-2005-2015.5/

 

In a question applicable to all bolts, the ones for the 2nd gen appear to have some form or red thread locker applied.. Is this indeed similar to loctite permanent high strength or something different. There are many mentions of using red loctite in places I personally would never use it and LBJ bolts is one. Medium strength maybe..



And there is a new kid on the block vibra-tite which is a reusable thread locker that doesn't need to be reapplied. Anyone tried it and can comment? A tube of it came is a kit with a rifle sight my son ordered.

 

That's not loctite, that's just coloring they use on the threads (they also have green). In general loctite can be a benefit, just be careful because it changes the torque to preload relationship. So you'll get more preload on the initial installation than without loctite (since it acts like a lubricant).

 

I just saw this video, and immediately thought about this thread. Junker test is cool. Crazy to see that none of the other locking mechanisms did anything.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IKwWu2w1gGk&t

 

Our engines are a veritable "hot bed" of vibration. There are no "Nordlock" type mechanical devices used.........

 

This thread is a gem, thank you again Leon for all the hard work here.

 

Yes! Thank you, this was super informative and I appreciate you taking the time to post

 

Yes indeed, Leon! Thank you very much for your empirical data on LBJ bolts and torque values. We no longer have to reply on questionable personal experiences and varied opinions on which LBJ bolts/installation torque numbers to use when dealing with our 1st Gen Taco's self-destructing LBJ design. Because of your diligent work, fewer Taco drivers will be taking the failed-LBJ dive. Without your valuable thread, I might have been one of them myself.

 

Thanks guys, it's always good to hear that this labor of love has been helpful to others. I'm going to have a small update soon, it turns out that one of the "winners" did not perform well over time. Stay tuned.

 

they also use blue on some new OEM bolts?