1. Welcome to Tacoma World!

    You are currently viewing as a guest! To get full-access, you need to register for a FREE account.

    As a registered member, you’ll be able to:
    • Participate in all Tacoma discussion topics
    • Communicate privately with other Tacoma owners from around the world
    • Post your own photos in our Members Gallery
    • Access all special features of the site

Looking for a different amp

Discussion in 'Audio & Video' started by WTtoolman, Aug 19, 2011.

  1. Aug 19, 2011 at 7:24 PM
    #1
    WTtoolman

    WTtoolman [OP] Facial bones colapse as I crack your skull in half

    Joined:
    Feb 17, 2010
    Member:
    #31585
    Messages:
    806
    Gender:
    Male
    First Name:
    William
    Omaha, NE
    Vehicle:
    2006 Access Cab 4x4 TRD SWB
    5100s at 0, eibachs, 2" toytec AAL,, Moto Metal 951b, BFG A/T
    When I upgraded my stereo system last november I went with the Pioneer GMD-9500 because I thought it would fit my needs very well. I have the front 2 channels (75x2 rms)going to my components, which sound awesome, and the rear channels bridged(200x1 rms) It's a very nice amp but I need more power going to my sub. Can anybody tell if an amp exist with these specs: 75x2 rms front and rear channels able to be bridged for 400x1rms. I've done some research and can't find what I'm looking for. Any help or recommendations are greatly appreciated!!
     
  2. Aug 19, 2011 at 7:35 PM
    #2
    mattg43

    mattg43 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 22, 2011
    Member:
    #51640
    Messages:
    846
    Gender:
    Male
    First Name:
    Matt
    Texas
    Vehicle:
    08 Prerunner SR5 DC
    SwingCase, driver side. PVC Bike rack. Aftermarket stereo.
    1. If you are thinking of selling the amp (assuming it is a GM-d9500f amp) please shoot me a PM. I am considering adding another amp to my setup.

    2. You will have a hard time finding a 75x4 that will bridge up to 400watts on the rear channels. In general, the "best" you can hope for is a doubling of power with 1/2 the resistance - Basically, 300 bridged is tops on a 75x4 amp when bridged.

    3. Do you have any size constraints due to an amp rack, or fitting in a certain area?

    4. Budget you are looking to spend, or not exceed.

    5. OK used, or want to find new? Online OK, or retail shop local preferred?
     
  3. Aug 20, 2011 at 8:11 PM
    #3
    jsucraig

    jsucraig Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 10, 2010
    Member:
    #36900
    Messages:
    371
    Gender:
    Male
    First Name:
    Craig
    Lynchburg, Virginia
    Vehicle:
    2013 Tacoma TRD Off-Road Double Cab
    Mudflaps removed, LED Interior lights, High Output Reverse Halogens, Redline Tuning Hood Struts, Garmin Dashcam 20, 17X8 Chrome Helo HE791 MAXX Wheels, Cooper Discoverer AT3 265/65R17, Memphis Car Audio Speakers and Amps, mattgecko LED Bed Light kit, Truxedo Low Pro QT Tonneau Cover
    Why don't you just keep your pioneer and add a Class D Mono Subwoofer Amp to meet your specs?
     
  4. Aug 21, 2011 at 12:23 AM
    #4
    Blackdawg

    Blackdawg Dr. Frankenstein

    Joined:
    Dec 31, 2010
    Member:
    #48500
    Messages:
    56,988
    Gender:
    Male
    First Name:
    Monte
    Wyoming/St. Louis
    Vehicle:
    96.5 FrankenTaco & 03 Stock dbl cab
    BFG KM2 33x12.5 tires, Wheelers Type B rims, Allpro 1.5'' Wheel spacers w/extended thread lug nuts 2 Alpine 10'' Type Xs 2 Kicker 6X9s 4 Sony 5 1/4s Pioneer 4100 HU Sway bar removed 4 Hella 500 HIDs Frankenstein Leaf packs 1'' lift shackles Eibach coils 5100s front 10'' 5150s rear BAMF BPV bracket Deckplate mod Elite Front bumper Magnaflow 14'' muffler Elite Off Road Rear bumper with Tire gate with jerry can and fold down table, BAMF sliders, Custom Homemade Bed, rack/roof rack, CVT Mt. Shasta Roof Top Tent, 20lb CO2 tank, BAMF diff skid custom front skid, GM CS144 140 amp alternator Blitzpro 21s HAWK side LEDs Blitzpro Custom made side mirror lights, LightForce 240 Blitz llights, Piaa 510 ION fogs, XRC8 Winch w/in cab controls,
    Get a separate sub for sub. You wont find and amp that will do what you want.

    You should have the rear running to rear speakers anyways as the rear speaker channel the head unit sends is different then the sub send from the head unit. Its processed much different.

    Get a small but powerfull type D sub amp...or this..i have and SSL amp..love it.

    http://www.sonicelectronix.com/item_17783_Sound-Storm-SSL-F2600D.html
     
  5. Aug 21, 2011 at 6:12 AM
    #5
    lbridges

    lbridges Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 6, 2011
    Member:
    #52434
    Messages:
    403
    Gender:
    Male
    First Name:
    Lee
    Indialantic, FL
    Vehicle:
    '11 PreRunner SR5
    ^^^ What he said (except I'm not interested in an amp).

    There are 100+X4 amps that could work though and all you need to do is turn down the gain a bit for the front channels.

    I have no idea about quality (used to be a good name), but something like the MB Quart ONX4.125 would do it all. Sonic has it for less than 200 but see #5 above.
     
  6. Aug 21, 2011 at 7:24 AM
    #6
    mattg43

    mattg43 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 22, 2011
    Member:
    #51640
    Messages:
    846
    Gender:
    Male
    First Name:
    Matt
    Texas
    Vehicle:
    08 Prerunner SR5 DC
    SwingCase, driver side. PVC Bike rack. Aftermarket stereo.
    If I had to guess, room is the issue. I know that once many people have a system installed, adding an amp would involve running new power wires (bigger gauge) power distribution block and finding a place to mount it, another set of RCA cables (if planning on running 5 amplified channels), and finding another spot to mount the amp.

    Yes, you can. Lots of options. There are many amps that will do 100-125x4, and bridge with plenty of power for the sub.

    Not really enough information to make this accurate.

    Some head units will have 1, 2, or 3 sets of pre-outs. If the headunit has one or two, they will generally be full range, and you set the amp up for the crossovers and the frequencies you want to play.

    i.e., there is no difference in how "it is processed".

    If there are 3 sets of pre-outs, generally the sub out is bandwidth limited and has its own controls on the head unit, but the front 2 are still full range, so there should never be any issues with sending a full range signal to an amp and having the amp crossovers handle its business.

    Basically, if a aftermarket deck is bandwidth limiting the output on the pre-outs, its a POS anyways.
     
  7. Aug 21, 2011 at 7:28 AM
    #7
    Amo-cat3

    Amo-cat3 Wizard Sleeve Master

    Joined:
    Jan 26, 2009
    Member:
    #12980
    Messages:
    416
    Gender:
    Male
    Maui, Hawaii
    Vehicle:
    07 TRD Blown dubcab
    TRD Supercharged 4.0 w/ 2.7" URD Pulley, APR X1, AFE Stage II intake, DT Longtubes, MBRP 2.5" dual exhaust w/ Vibrant Ultra resonator, URD Y-pipe w/ vibrant v-bands (Cat free), Walboro 255 fuel pump, SS Oil catch can, Aeroforce gauges, Icon CDC 2.5 coilover set at 3", 1.5" Alcan aal, Light racing uca, 17x8.5 Fuel Anza 4.5" backspace/-6 mm offset, m/t atz 265/70/17, scanguage 2, AMP electric steps, bed extender, Low-pro tonneau cover, 20% tinted windows/headlights/taillights, tacoma seat covers, Image dynamic sound system w/ Pinoneer avh3200 head, assrtd stickers................
    Do like lbridges said- I also had the gm9500 for my id65 component speakers in front and idv10 sub. Nice little amp, but not quite enough for my sub. I upgraded to an MB quart 4 x 125 and mounted it behind my rear passenger seat like this. (picture of EvilMonkey's truck) [​IMG]

    Right now my gains are set to only half way but my system pushes very hard and clear with the MB Quart. I searched my ass off just like you and decided to stick with one amp instead of a two amp combination. Bigger amp and set gains correctly and you should be golden.
     
  8. Aug 21, 2011 at 7:46 AM
    #8
    mattg43

    mattg43 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 22, 2011
    Member:
    #51640
    Messages:
    846
    Gender:
    Male
    First Name:
    Matt
    Texas
    Vehicle:
    08 Prerunner SR5 DC
    SwingCase, driver side. PVC Bike rack. Aftermarket stereo.
  9. Aug 21, 2011 at 9:59 AM
    #9
    Blackdawg

    Blackdawg Dr. Frankenstein

    Joined:
    Dec 31, 2010
    Member:
    #48500
    Messages:
    56,988
    Gender:
    Male
    First Name:
    Monte
    Wyoming/St. Louis
    Vehicle:
    96.5 FrankenTaco & 03 Stock dbl cab
    BFG KM2 33x12.5 tires, Wheelers Type B rims, Allpro 1.5'' Wheel spacers w/extended thread lug nuts 2 Alpine 10'' Type Xs 2 Kicker 6X9s 4 Sony 5 1/4s Pioneer 4100 HU Sway bar removed 4 Hella 500 HIDs Frankenstein Leaf packs 1'' lift shackles Eibach coils 5100s front 10'' 5150s rear BAMF BPV bracket Deckplate mod Elite Front bumper Magnaflow 14'' muffler Elite Off Road Rear bumper with Tire gate with jerry can and fold down table, BAMF sliders, Custom Homemade Bed, rack/roof rack, CVT Mt. Shasta Roof Top Tent, 20lb CO2 tank, BAMF diff skid custom front skid, GM CS144 140 amp alternator Blitzpro 21s HAWK side LEDs Blitzpro Custom made side mirror lights, LightForce 240 Blitz llights, Piaa 510 ION fogs, XRC8 Winch w/in cab controls,

    He could find one yes. But it'll be a huge amp. like 20'' long at least. Much easier to get a much more efficient type D amp.

    And yes there is a difference in how its processed. You explained how its processed. Sub channels get a Mono summed signal instead of stereo. They also get a very frequency specific signal. There for processed differently then a full range pre out.

    So what, your saying that a headunit with sub pre outs is a POS...man your not thinking.

    Having seperate control over your sub from your rear speak channel is important to help tune your system the way you want it to sound. And you will be able to find that sound much faster easier and better if you have a sub channel and controls in the head unit.

    can you just run rear full range to the amp and have the amp do the cut offs? yes. Will it sound as good. No.

    For the OP, the best option is to run a separate amp for his sub connected to the sub pre out and the amp the rear speakers with his current amp. Will give him a better sound from all his speakers and his sub, and more control to tune it how he wants.
     
  10. Aug 21, 2011 at 11:35 AM
    #10
    lbridges

    lbridges Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 6, 2011
    Member:
    #52434
    Messages:
    403
    Gender:
    Male
    First Name:
    Lee
    Indialantic, FL
    Vehicle:
    '11 PreRunner SR5
    That's a pretty bold statement. Care to back it up?

    BTW, I'm running a JL Audio XD 600/6. It could be configured to be 75X2 and 200X2 (which produces 2X75 and 400 for a sub that the OP wanted -- assumes use for a dual voice coil sub). And it's 10.23" X 7.09" X 2.05", so not so much a monster. My suggestion was to show the OP what he wants to do can be done; and for not too much more money considering he's already spent some on the first amp.
     
  11. Aug 21, 2011 at 12:13 PM
    #11
    mattg43

    mattg43 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 22, 2011
    Member:
    #51640
    Messages:
    846
    Gender:
    Male
    First Name:
    Matt
    Texas
    Vehicle:
    08 Prerunner SR5 DC
    SwingCase, driver side. PVC Bike rack. Aftermarket stereo.
    Nope. Time to check into products introduced in the past 6 years or so.


    Generally the sub output of a head unit is stereo. You can tell because there are 2 pre-outs. The red/white. Also known as left/right. AKA, STEREO!!

    I guess if a crossover is the extent of your "processing" I guess you can consider a sub output as "processed". But then, your system probably sounds pretty bland ;)

    No, I am saying any full range output that is filtered sucks. A sub output is not a full range output. Nice try.

    But, for the record - I will be running 1 stereo pair to my processor. Everything else is handled there, with no crossovers or filtering happening in the head unit. So I guess a full range signal is good enough.

    You are assuming that rear speakers are being ran.

    IF one was running 4 amplified speakers, as well as a sub, then we are talking a different ball game, and the simple addition of a fade control is quite handy. Not the case this time. I thought that was clear when the OP said they used a 4 channel to amp the front channels and a sub...

    But, if it were, a 5 channel would still probably be a better option for the OP. He has not chimed in yet, so cannot go much futher.
    There is no difference in the sound. Do you think a 12 db/oct slope on an amp is different than a 12 db/oct in the head unit?

    Like lbridges said, time to back it up...

    Another big assumption that adds unnecessary complications
     
  12. Aug 22, 2011 at 12:14 AM
    #12
    Blackdawg

    Blackdawg Dr. Frankenstein

    Joined:
    Dec 31, 2010
    Member:
    #48500
    Messages:
    56,988
    Gender:
    Male
    First Name:
    Monte
    Wyoming/St. Louis
    Vehicle:
    96.5 FrankenTaco & 03 Stock dbl cab
    BFG KM2 33x12.5 tires, Wheelers Type B rims, Allpro 1.5'' Wheel spacers w/extended thread lug nuts 2 Alpine 10'' Type Xs 2 Kicker 6X9s 4 Sony 5 1/4s Pioneer 4100 HU Sway bar removed 4 Hella 500 HIDs Frankenstein Leaf packs 1'' lift shackles Eibach coils 5100s front 10'' 5150s rear BAMF BPV bracket Deckplate mod Elite Front bumper Magnaflow 14'' muffler Elite Off Road Rear bumper with Tire gate with jerry can and fold down table, BAMF sliders, Custom Homemade Bed, rack/roof rack, CVT Mt. Shasta Roof Top Tent, 20lb CO2 tank, BAMF diff skid custom front skid, GM CS144 140 amp alternator Blitzpro 21s HAWK side LEDs Blitzpro Custom made side mirror lights, LightForce 240 Blitz llights, Piaa 510 ION fogs, XRC8 Winch w/in cab controls,
    I just built my system 2 years ago. I think i know. There is a concept called head room, matching wattages isn't really bad...but head room is ALWAYS better to help fend off amp distorntion which is much worse for a speaker then actual speaker distortion due to square waves. Plus amp distortion almost always comes well before speaker distortion does. There for for 400w RMS subs. 500-600w RMS from an amp is the min head room to go...not gonna find that in a bridged 4 ch amp. And most professional live sound guys get 3-5 TIMES the power in amps needed to drive the speakers at their shows. usually 1.5x for us normal ppl is the best option.

    Oh brother..okay, just cause there are 2 out puts, doesn't mean the signal is differant. Subs don't send stereo. Its simply a copy of the same signal, thus boost the amout of input siginal the sub is getting. It just like running a mono house vs a stereo house for live sound. Just cuz your running mono dosen't mean your taking one cable out of the board. You still take both.

    ....no full ranged out put is filtered..hence the term FULL range. The way you said it earlier made is sound like you were attackin the sub ch. Drop that i guess.

    So your running an out board processor? Cool. Most ppl don't. Also if you send a full range signal to an out board processor, it can process a sub ch from that signal. Home stereo systems do this everyday.

    True, my mistake. Either way..prolly should maybe look into getting some rear speakers..
    But, if it were, a 5 channel would still probably be a better option for the OP. He has not chimed in yet, so cannot go much further.

    [/QUOTE]

    Yes, i do. This is where quality of the amp and head unit come in.

    If you ever have the chance too. Try it some time. You'll see the frequencies given off the rear channel are far different then the sub. For instances around 250-400hz will be played quite high if you run from the rears. Subs shouldn't even play anything about 250hz and thats pushing it. Most roll offs start at 125hz.


    Im studying audio engineering. Its not like i don't know what im talking about..
     
  13. Aug 22, 2011 at 5:44 AM
    #13
    Joehs

    Joehs Okie!

    Joined:
    Apr 16, 2010
    Member:
    #35414
    Messages:
    578
    Gender:
    Male
    First Name:
    Joey
    Broken Arrow, OK
    Vehicle:
    12' Tacoma Sport
    Didn't read through the whole thread, so pardon if your questions was already answered.

    If you're still looking for a small sized 5 channel amp. My recommendation is either an alpine PDX-5, or whatever the newest model of those is. Solid little amps that do a bit more power than you're currently getting. Or, a Massive Audio NX5. Those things are little beasts. 120x4 @ 4 ohms and 800x1 on the sub channel. Also has active crossover capabilities, all in a 15"x5"x2" box.

    Just my opinion of course.
     
  14. Aug 22, 2011 at 9:20 AM
    #14
    Blackdawg

    Blackdawg Dr. Frankenstein

    Joined:
    Dec 31, 2010
    Member:
    #48500
    Messages:
    56,988
    Gender:
    Male
    First Name:
    Monte
    Wyoming/St. Louis
    Vehicle:
    96.5 FrankenTaco & 03 Stock dbl cab
    BFG KM2 33x12.5 tires, Wheelers Type B rims, Allpro 1.5'' Wheel spacers w/extended thread lug nuts 2 Alpine 10'' Type Xs 2 Kicker 6X9s 4 Sony 5 1/4s Pioneer 4100 HU Sway bar removed 4 Hella 500 HIDs Frankenstein Leaf packs 1'' lift shackles Eibach coils 5100s front 10'' 5150s rear BAMF BPV bracket Deckplate mod Elite Front bumper Magnaflow 14'' muffler Elite Off Road Rear bumper with Tire gate with jerry can and fold down table, BAMF sliders, Custom Homemade Bed, rack/roof rack, CVT Mt. Shasta Roof Top Tent, 20lb CO2 tank, BAMF diff skid custom front skid, GM CS144 140 amp alternator Blitzpro 21s HAWK side LEDs Blitzpro Custom made side mirror lights, LightForce 240 Blitz llights, Piaa 510 ION fogs, XRC8 Winch w/in cab controls,
    Not a bad idea. But the PDX-5 is underpowered. The massive audio tho looks sweet.
     
  15. Aug 22, 2011 at 12:21 PM
    #15
    mattg43

    mattg43 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 22, 2011
    Member:
    #51640
    Messages:
    846
    Gender:
    Male
    First Name:
    Matt
    Texas
    Vehicle:
    08 Prerunner SR5 DC
    SwingCase, driver side. PVC Bike rack. Aftermarket stereo.
    Since you are an audio engineer student, lets hit a couple things. Ill even give you the answers.

    1. How much power is needed for a 3db increase in volume?
    a) double the power
    2. How much increase is needed for the human ear to discern a noticeable difference?
    a) 3db
    3. How much difference would be be from 200w to 400w?
    a) 3db (a noticeable increase...)
    4. How much difference would come from 400 to 500w?
    a) less than 1db.
    5. WTF is the point of adding 100w for "headroom"?

    Headroom? If you think 1db of "headroom" is a goal to shoot for, more (wasted) power to you. Tell that to your professor/teacher.

    And yes, you can find 500+w from a bridged 4 channel. Yes, those will probably be bigger amps, but again, not needed.


    I dont even know where to start. If a pair of outputs is set up as 2 channels, then you have 2 channels. If your amplifier takes those 2 channels and combines them into a mono (summed) output, then you have mono bass from your amp.

    Many amps can run stereo subs, many head units can as well. There are a few with 5 channel pre-outs, and those obviously dont have stereo...

    Tons of pro audio and concert setups have multi-channel subs. Others run mono, depending on the situation.

    Now, if you mean music does not have stereo bass recorded, that would be correct when considering a X.1 recording.

    But, since most music is stereo, there is different information throughout the audible spectrum, including sub-bass. On both channels. That means stereo.

    If you have never heard a setup with stereo bass, I suggest you give it a try. It works very well in larger rooms/areas, or when the driver is playing higher than 90hz or so. More about that further down.


    First, this was about the difference in a filter on the head unit vs the filter on an amp. If they are set at the same place, and working properly, there is no difference in sound. Period.

    I re-read this, and think you are assuming that one would have to run full range off the "rear" outputs, or use the filter on the "sub" output. You are aware that most amplifiers have built in crossovers, right? And that you can run a full range into an amplifier, and tell it to only play certain frequencies.

    With that said - sub-bass is generally considered 80-100hz and down. But with the normal 12db/oct slope on a crossover, you will still have audible information being played way above the crossover frequency. But again, what does this have to do with the filter on head unit vs amp?

    Cool story bro. If thats the case, where does all the misinformation come from?



    A great idea. I was going to suggest the NX4 to the OP, but he has never come back in to clarify. If the sub channel needs to be 4 ohm, and there is no need for rear speakers (and there isnt thus far.) then a 4 channel may be able to give more power for the sub. A mono amp (or sub channel) is generally optimized for a 2 ohm load, not 4 ohm.
     
  16. Aug 22, 2011 at 1:39 PM
    #16
    jsucraig

    jsucraig Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 10, 2010
    Member:
    #36900
    Messages:
    371
    Gender:
    Male
    First Name:
    Craig
    Lynchburg, Virginia
    Vehicle:
    2013 Tacoma TRD Off-Road Double Cab
    Mudflaps removed, LED Interior lights, High Output Reverse Halogens, Redline Tuning Hood Struts, Garmin Dashcam 20, 17X8 Chrome Helo HE791 MAXX Wheels, Cooper Discoverer AT3 265/65R17, Memphis Car Audio Speakers and Amps, mattgecko LED Bed Light kit, Truxedo Low Pro QT Tonneau Cover
    Good luck OP. You're not getting any help here, now.
    I'm out.
     
  17. Aug 22, 2011 at 2:29 PM
    #17
    ItalynStylion

    ItalynStylion Sounds Gooooood

    Joined:
    Jun 15, 2009
    Member:
    #18467
    Messages:
    4,865
    Gender:
    Male
    First Name:
    Steven
    DFW, Tx.
    Vehicle:
    09 Double Cab TRD Sport 4x4
    Not true. Many headunits will actually have an option to choose whether you want the sub output in Stereo or Mono. I know for a fact that the Alpine 9887, the Eclipse 8445, and the Eclipse AVN726e all have this option because I've owned all three units. I don't think that ALL headunits are like this but most with a dedicated sub output are.

    Think about the application. Some people actually run stereo subs. It's actually quite cool if you do it right. However, you'll need two channels to make use of it. If you run a stereo signal to a mono amp it's pretty much useless.

    Underpowered in what respect? Most of them come with birth sheets that bench right around 380RMS if memory serves me right. Did you mean to say underrated?
     
To Top