Red Bullet VVTi Solenoids GB (Primary GB CLOSED)

Thanks, and yes, it all helps. No problem, water under the bridge!

 

Ahh...I forgot about the torque converter, I'm used to dealing with manual transmissions in old VWs.... doh!
Also, OK I get it a little better... I was confused originally at your baseline graph, thought it was 2 baselines. But now I see it more clear. The 3rd picture was a spike, I believe something fishy with that dyno run. But given the main overlay, I believe it better. could have been heat soaked, but max torque/power were not substantially improved, but it did pickup more in the midrange, which lends credibility to the idea that it is getting better valve timing in those areas where the oem solenoids were leaving some on the table. but ultimately with the cams all the way shifted, the max power of the engine is similar with either solenoid - since at full open they both change the valve timing the same (limited by the intake cam gear mechanism)

I am not inclined to believe the 347/389 numbers, but I think I do buy the idea of it making more power/torque in the middle RPM, of course my butt isn't in your seat. I'd believe it if the max power was similar or moderately improved if the heat soak hadn't have occurred, but I really don't think max the numbers should improve much, after the RPM where the alteration of cam timing is maximum. Where I believe the solenoids show promise is in real world acceleration, which isn't often at 4750rpm... but in those lower end areas, there is meat on the curve there, and acceleration is more tied to area under the torque curve than it is a change in the peak value...

BTW, is it advancing or retarding the intake cam? I think retarding the timing, making it work better at moderate to high RPM but idles worse and worse low end torque

 

Yeah and you know funny enough the low to the mid range is where I feel a nice hard oomph while I'm driving it too. The top end has just about always felt the same. I think short of full camshafts, a de- cat of the main converters (which will never happen) and meth injection I'm really reaching the upper tier airflow horsepower limits of the 1GR.

That last bit, where you mention the retarding or advancing timing, are you referring to the OE VVTi solenoids, the aftermarket ones, or the theory of operation in general?

 

both the OEM and the new solenoids just allow oil flow to the mechanism on the head of the camshaft to change the relative position of the intake cam with respect to crank. Exhaust cam follows the intake. My question is whether it is advancing or retarding the cam with respect to crank. And I think I already answered it for myself, the timing is retarded relative to crank when the solenoid triggered. That is what makes an engine run good in the upper rpm, advancing cam is better for idle and low rpm.

 

I agree with you it shouldn't make better peak numbers as its only able to advance and retard so far if the stock solenoids are working properly. Would be interesting to know what the stock operating tolerances were for the factory solenoids. Either way I can see these being built better do to tighter tolerances, better materials and the fact that technology has progressed. So it wouldn't be out of the possibility to pick up gains more likely in the midrange as stated but possibly on the top end depending on how well the factory solenoids are working after prolonged use. Either way there are always gains to be made on these motors as they were built for a set price and and durability parameters....

 

What you said sounds about right actually. It advances and retards the timing when needed hence the variable valve timing VVT name. I like it.

 

I think it never advances the cam... base cam timing is default. It retards timing of intake cam for better upper rpm performance with the small and mild cams with no overlap, that are needed for good vacuum and clean idle and good off idle characteristics. Retarding gives more overlap, good for power after the engine is running at good volumetric efficiency, and then removes the retard (which is advance) but back to the base setting only. I'd be floored to find that there is any advance beyond default/base timing...

 

Can't wait to get these in and installed. Getting a much needed dyno tune done after

 

I love the fact that y'all are developing new performance gains on our engine. I cant help but have PTSD with this thinking about the CM Hydro throw out bearing group buy that started out so promising but turned into a full on dumpster fire after we all installed then and started running them.... I really hope this is a good as it seems.

 

I feel the same and it's part of jumping in with new mods I guess. At least these will be an easy swap out if they shit the bed (knock on wood) unlike the CM dumpster fire

 

I’ve read about the solenoids and the exhaust cam gears on here. It sounds like I could gain 20-25 horsepower and lb-ft. of torque for maybe $700 including labor. So basically 1/10 the cost of a supercharger but close to 1/3 of the performance gain. Is that accurate?

 

I don't think so. Maybe others will agree with you. but I don't see 20+ hp on the table with gears and solenoids alone in a NA engine. more power, yes, better midrange, yes, but not peak. Maybe with a good HPtune and also other things like exhaust and intake and a tune that is optimized for those mods and/or meant for higher octane gas. Also, with the most basic of mods, the blower will give more than 60hp, but that is a figure that doesn't matter, it is the torque with a blower, and where the torque is made, that is a big difference, and I think you are mis-representing the truth with the 1/3 for 1/10 statement.

 

@12TRDTacoma

What oil you running?

 

5-30 dino Valvoline. 6 quarts.

 

Right, definitely not saying 1/3 for 1/10 is gospel here. It just kind of sounded that way from what I've read on these two mods. That may not be quite the reality of it, didn't mean to spout any BS here.

 

Assume full syn

 

Just went back to page 1, looked at the dyno chart that was taken from the solenoid web page. It shows gains across the board, as if the solenoid is doing something more than OEM does, across the RPM band. That concept is not born out in our dyno data or our skeptical discussions. Anyone have any thoughts on it?

 

Are you saying you assumed that I was running full synthetic?

The benefits of them emanate themselves in a different fashion indeed. Not in a good or bad way, just in a way that may be more desirable for what we are after anyways.

Me, I still like these over the OE ones simply because I feel a much harder pull down low and in the mid range band. If things stayed the same as far as overall power goes, then that's fine with me, but I have always loved a lot of torque and these sort of helped utilize it where I really like to have it.

They almost remind me of the long vs. short intake runners. Both have their benefits but they also have their drawbacks that the other takes advantage of. Or like long tube headers vs shorties.

I think these would be great to test with a supercharged MT and an NA to see what is really going on, since automatics are more fickle on dynos.

 

I mean in comparison to that hydro TOB the advantage in this while it still costs money of course is that this mod takes about 10-15 minutes to do if everything cooperates with you and is not frozen, also the engine not being hot helps a lot, and is easily reversible if you are not happy with the results.

I would almost call these a different spin on the VVTi system where the peak numbers may keep things the same or even have just a bit of a loss, but they take better advantage of power under the curve.